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Post by sos on Jun 29, 2014 17:13:47 GMT
Another thing that I think is seriously wrong with season 2: it's less of a story and more of a death chart. We're basically mapping out the story by when this character will die or when that character will die. Through season 1, I didn't do any of that. Now, I understand that this way of thinking is flawed because we had no way of knowing how relentless the game would be during season 1 while we have 1 as proof during season 2, but still... I didn't go into Long Road Ahead thinking "OK, Duck and Kat's clock have got to be ticking out of time here." Really, all I'm focused on with Amid the Ruins, and season 2 in general, is "alright, Rebecca's going to give birth and a bunch of people will die."
Whoever said they didn't care about Alvin's death in this thread, completely agree. I've played through In Harm's Way several times, including a couple of times in which I saved Alvin. When his final scene roles around, I try so hard to be sad. I just can't. All I see is a fat black guy that's too nice for his own good.
EVERYTHING SAID... I don't hate season 2. I don't think it's utter shit. I think it's the far inferior to season 1, but it's still a game and universe I highly enjoy immersing myself into.
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Post by Zeruis on Jun 29, 2014 18:15:54 GMT
The problem with S2 is that it mostly stems from the narrative. When the S2 lead writers were handed the torch from Sean and Jake, I think that they assumed that shocker moments were what made S1 GOTY when it was actually the fleshed out character development. I can't tell where exactly they're taking the narrative this time around. In S1, we had a clear goal of getting to Savannah and looking for a boat/Clem's parents. In S2, I can't tell what's the objective. Now that Carver's gone, is it just to survive? Get to Wellington? I can't tell anymore. I'm going to copy-paste something I said over at Telltale a while ago: You want to know what's ironic? Remember when every season one episode opened up with the prompt that "Your choices 'tailor' the story"? In S2, it's very fitting that this prompt is not even shown at *once* given how almost every character's relationship with Clem is hardly dependent on choices (see Rebecca, Carlos). Back in S1, you could make a tiny jab at people like Lilly or Kenny and they would comment on their relationship with Lee across at least for a couple of episodes. There's your "illusion of choice". I wouldn't say S2 has *bad* writing, it's just very shoddy and inconsistent. Very, very inconsistent...Sarah exclaims that she's never seen a girl around her age since "way before." Uh, she surely met Becca (who obviously knows Sarah given her dislike of her), right? What if we told Carver our name is "Carley"? Ever bring that up in Ep3? No. Carver calls her "Clementine" either way. Are we just led to believe that Carver was the one who shot up Pete and the group back at the river? It'd be nice if Carver had just *one* line alluding to this in E3. I'm going to set aside the pre-contrived notions that 400 Days would play a bigger role, Carver would be an over-arching villain throughout the whole season, as well as Ep3 having more effective hub areas (which were all completely valid, by the way) and say that I expected better from this episode. Despite the "illusion of choice", I still wanted to see characters comment on their relationship with Clem based on heavy decisions (sit with Kenny or Luke, stick up for Sarah for taking a photo) in this episode. They didn't happen. I would change my opinion of the whole season if it turned out that Carver wasn't the main focus villain, but the focus turns out to be how Clem is affected by all of our choices (sassy/badass or kind and caring), but even I'm skeptical that E4 isn't going to mention how Clem's personality is going to change due to an important choice such as the 'staying or leaving' Carver choice. I really do not like Season 2. I'm disappointed. TWAU, is a different story. I love it, and I am gonna be sad when it's over. Oh man, I'd rather have TWAU S2 rather than S3 of WD. I've been a big fan of this series.
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Post by Crooked Christa on Jun 29, 2014 18:55:13 GMT
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jun 29, 2014 19:11:16 GMT
If Kenny wasn't in season 2 then I would've quit by now. Because lets admit, I only care about Kenny and Clem and they're the only ones keeping me from throwing season 2 in the trash. It's absolute shit. Sure, the other characters are good too, I'm sure there's someone in there that I like but just can't single out right now, but the character development is weak, the story is weak, the short episodes are bullshit, there's hardly any interactive. Season 1 was way better. You finally admitted it! But I can't even blame you, season 2 characters are just weaker. We don't know their backstory, many of them don't develop at all, they are being killed off just to shock people. I miss the days of season 1. Didn't you love the old days where there was lots of development? Like every time something slowed down, you got to talk and learn more about the people and what there thoughts were? I LOVED THAT! Now there is not as much as that, the characters are still good, but I want to know more, I always want to know more!
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Post by Crooked Christa on Jun 29, 2014 19:13:00 GMT
You finally admitted it! But I can't even blame you, season 2 characters are just weaker. We don't know their backstory, many of them don't develop at all, they are being killed off just to shock people. I miss the days of season 1. Didn't you love the old days where there was lots of development? Like every time something slowed down, you got to talk and learn more about the people and what there thoughts were? I LOVED THAT! Now there is not as much as that, the characters are still good, but I want to know more, I always want to know more! B-b-but 90 minute Episodes. You obviously just don't know what you want...
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jun 29, 2014 19:13:58 GMT
Well... I don't like season 2 much either. -They killed off Omid too early just for shock treatment, -we had like three episodes with these new characters and I just don't care about them enough. -Clementine does EVERYTHING for the group, I mean really? How the fuck did the cabin group survive two years in the apocalypse considering that they need a little girl to do everything for them?! -Telltale kept telling us to replay/play 400 Days before 202 and 203 by saying that the choices will have an impact on those two episodes but they din't have any impact whatsoever, other than short cameos. -There is no interaction at all. -I feel disappointed about Carver's role. His role was pretty much just to attempt Clem into becoming a psychopath like him, that's all. There was no reedeming quality about him. From episodes 1 and 2, we all suspected that maybe the cabin group aren't so innocent and maybe they had something to do with Carver turning into a monster but no, Carver was always a monster and there was no dark secret about the cabin group at all. -The story is focusing too much on Clem and Kenny. I get it that Clem is the main character and all, but season 1 wasn't all about Lee. I also get it that Kenny was an old character from season 1 but maybe he shouldn't get all the action. -To be honest, the only new character I like in this season is Sarah because she reminds of how Clem was back in season 1 with her being innocent and all. I wish she was the deuteragonist, not Luke because I feel like Telltale is trying to hard with this guy, just making him too likable so then Telltale will give him us reason why we should save him if the ice scream and pizza choice is Kenny and Luke. Well, that was my rant. Sorry if I was a bit to angry with my confession. I disagree with Carver, he was a really well done bad guy and one of the things season 2 has over season 1, but the only problem with him is, well, I don't know if he was around long enough, I still say episode 4 would have been the stopping point, because we would have something to fear, something that might be coming after us, and we have someone that is soon to be giving birth, which means no movement, instead hes dead, I could be wrong, and I have to see how everything plays out, but I got a feeling that was a waste a fantastic antagonist.
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jun 29, 2014 19:17:36 GMT
SEASON 2 SPOILERS!!! On the notion that season 2 wasn't as good but it's still a thing you wait for, i agree. It definitely feels like the dialogue impact is way less developed. I mean, i played season 1 recently and i realized just how complex episode 4 and 5 gets with the alternate dialogue, hell i even found some things i didn't knew about in the season on my latest playthrough. Season 2 feels like a straight road and you barely get a say-in into things that characters ACTUALLY remember, and it progressively starts getting into a more bland survival type of thing, like the type you'd get at DayZ or Rust or whatever. I didn't care that Alvin died. Put as many sad violins as you can, i barely know the guy besides the fact he went skiing, he's black and somehow manages to keep his weight during a 5-day walk. Walter had probably the most impactful death because the guy was so nice, and he gained plenty of character development, enough to make me know him better. Most definitely the guy i cared about the most. And it's kind of a shame, season 2 episode 1 was going places for me and it started with some real big moments and got you a new group that could be well developed in the next episode, the first episode got me hooked and ready for some great stuff. But Telltale was like "Noo, let's kill all of these people because it's sad and shocking and stuff!" But you're not gonna make me sad and shocked if you're gonna arse around with shorter episodes and a complete lack of interaction with any of these characters! I mean come on, man! Stop killing everyone off, and give them some time to say more than 10 sentences! It's..still a good game. I get this kind of emotion everytime a new episodes comes around. Whenever a TWAU episode comes out and i'm downloading it, i'm all excited and happy, ready to play the newest installment and see how the game will amaze me this time. But if it's a TWD S2 episode, i'm not really all that excited anymore, i just kind of react like "Well, let's see how this goes..." The season is overall very lackluster in quality and character development. I've been in a denial before, i thought the episodes were fantastic. But then i look at them twice, and i realize what's going wrong here, i get what you guys mean. It's just..dumb sometimes..where did our Telltale go? I disagree with the sad aspect, there is a artform to making people cry, there is, and yes, it matters a lot who is it and how much we like him, but it matters a hell of a lot more how you do it, I loved Omid, but I didn't cry when he died, I was angry, I thought it was dumb and a waste! I didn't know Alvin all that well at all, your right, but for me his death in episode 3 was far more sad then Omid just because it was set up and executed better, its as simple as that. Oh, and the Telltale we knew and loved, it died with the old forum far as I am concerned.
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jun 29, 2014 19:19:31 GMT
It'll probably only be for a death scene, because Season 2 doesn't know anything that it has going for it. Calling it, Nick's gonna do a heroic sacrifice to save Luke or some bollocks like that. And what? If Nick is already dead, Luke is just totally fine? That would piss me off, it already is kind of dumb that Luke never even asks what happened to Nick if he died, I mean what the hell!? He is your best friend since childhood, your brother pretty much, WTF? Did you just happen to turn into Maggie from the show? One who does not care that your sister is nowhere, even though you have known her for, 18 years! BULLSHIT!
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jun 29, 2014 19:23:35 GMT
I don't fully agree with all of this, but the first one is right, it went by pretty fast, and killed off a wonderfully written bad guy voiced by the perfect voice actor who has said many times, would like to stay around a long time.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 19:24:11 GMT
Calling it, Nick's gonna do a heroic sacrifice to save Luke or some bollocks like that. And what? If Nick is already dead, Luke is just totally fine? That would piss me off, it already is kind of dumb that Luke never even asks what happened to Nick if he died, I mean what the hell!? He is your best friend since childhood, your brother pretty much, WTF? Did you just happen to turn into Maggie from the show? One who does not care that your sister is nowhere, even though you have known her for, 18 years! BULLSHIT! Probably. Or someone else saves Luke and no one dies. I can see that being a very typical telltale move. I hope they add in an entire scene that only plays out if Nick's alive. Something where they have to option to scope somewhere out, and Luke says "There's three of us, let's do it" or "There's only two of us, I don't like those odds."
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jun 29, 2014 19:25:10 GMT
Another thing that I think is seriously wrong with season 2: it's less of a story and more of a death chart. We're basically mapping out the story by when this character will die or when that character will die. Through season 1, I didn't do any of that. Now, I understand that this way of thinking is flawed because we had no way of knowing how relentless the game would be during season 1 while we have 1 as proof during season 2, but still... I didn't go into Long Road Ahead thinking "OK, Duck and Kat's clock have got to be ticking out of time here." Really, all I'm focused on with Amid the Ruins, and season 2 in general, is "alright, Rebecca's going to give birth and a bunch of people will die." Whoever said they didn't care about Alvin's death in this thread, completely agree. I've played through In Harm's Way several times, including a couple of times in which I saved Alvin. When his final scene roles around, I try so hard to be sad. I just can't. All I see is a fat black guy that's too nice for his own good. EVERYTHING SAID... I don't hate season 2. I don't think it's utter shit. I think it's the far inferior to season 1, but it's still a game and universe I highly enjoy immersing myself into. You are right, back in season 1, I didn't think everyone would die, no, episode 3 was one of the biggest kick in the teeth moments in gaming, it totally fucked with our perception that all will be good and then just crashed that car pretty badly, from then on, we were all depressed and extremely cynical, saying that everyone will die, its just what time? Here, we all are cynical making death predictions like its a fucking deadpool.
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jun 29, 2014 19:26:41 GMT
The problem with S2 is that it mostly stems from the narrative. When the S2 lead writers were handed the torch from Sean and Jake, I think that they assumed that shocker moments were what made S1 GOTY when it was actually the fleshed out character development. I can't tell where exactly they're taking the narrative this time around. In S1, we had a clear goal of getting to Savannah and looking for a boat/Clem's parents. In S2, I can't tell what's the objective. Now that Carver's gone, is it just to survive? Get to Wellington? I can't tell anymore. I'm going to copy-paste something I said over at Telltale a while ago: You want to know what's ironic? Remember when every season one episode opened up with the prompt that "Your choices 'tailor' the story"? In S2, it's very fitting that this prompt is not even shown at *once* given how almost every character's relationship with Clem is hardly dependent on choices (see Rebecca, Carlos). Back in S1, you could make a tiny jab at people like Lilly or Kenny and they would comment on their relationship with Lee across at least for a couple of episodes. There's your "illusion of choice". I wouldn't say S2 has *bad* writing, it's just very shoddy and inconsistent. Very, very inconsistent...Sarah exclaims that she's never seen a girl around her age since "way before." Uh, she surely met Becca (who obviously knows Sarah given her dislike of her), right? What if we told Carver our name is "Carley"? Ever bring that up in Ep3? No. Carver calls her "Clementine" either way. Are we just led to believe that Carver was the one who shot up Pete and the group back at the river? It'd be nice if Carver had just *one* line alluding to this in E3. I'm going to set aside the pre-contrived notions that 400 Days would play a bigger role, Carver would be an over-arching villain throughout the whole season, as well as Ep3 having more effective hub areas (which were all completely valid, by the way) and say that I expected better from this episode. Despite the "illusion of choice", I still wanted to see characters comment on their relationship with Clem based on heavy decisions (sit with Kenny or Luke, stick up for Sarah for taking a photo) in this episode. They didn't happen. I would change my opinion of the whole season if it turned out that Carver wasn't the main focus villain, but the focus turns out to be how Clem is affected by all of our choices (sassy/badass or kind and caring), but even I'm skeptical that E4 isn't going to mention how Clem's personality is going to change due to an important choice such as the 'staying or leaving' Carver choice. I really do not like Season 2. I'm disappointed. TWAU, is a different story. I love it, and I am gonna be sad when it's over. Oh man, I'd rather have TWAU S2 rather than S3 of WD. I've been a big fan of this series. I couldn't agree more Zerius, Jake and Sean leaving hurt this project badly, they were working on it, so when they left, they had to change some stuff obviously, and the new writers while good, don't compare to Jake and Sean, its like comparing the writer of Bioshock 2, to the mighty Ken Levine, I'm sure your good, but you just can't be as good, you just can't, your in the shadow of great people.
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jun 29, 2014 19:28:42 GMT
And what? If Nick is already dead, Luke is just totally fine? That would piss me off, it already is kind of dumb that Luke never even asks what happened to Nick if he died, I mean what the hell!? He is your best friend since childhood, your brother pretty much, WTF? Did you just happen to turn into Maggie from the show? One who does not care that your sister is nowhere, even though you have known her for, 18 years! BULLSHIT! Probably. Or someone else saves Luke and no one dies. I can see that being a very typical telltale move. I hope they add in an entire scene that only plays out if Nick's alive. Something where they have to option to scope somewhere out, and Luke says "There's three of us, let's do it" or "There's only two of us, I don't like those odds." Yeah, sadly that does sound like Telltale, either the scene does not play out, or it does, but no one dies, the greatest irony here is, they promised us greater choices and more affect here, and in the end, it does even less, season 1 gets shot all the time for choices not mattering, and yet it has more choice and affect ironically.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 19:33:23 GMT
Not gonna lie, I still love the everloving shit out of Season 2.
I don't care about illusion of choice, because I know that it's an illusion. I actually wish they'd stop making determinant characters so they'd be more easy to expand upon. I wish they'd said fuck it to the outcomes of 400 days and just made it so the characters made a passing comment like 'my friends left and came back for me a month or so later'.
I come to the game for the story - there's something enticing about it - and the choices are a bonus for me. I like making choices such as sitting with Luke or Kenny as it feels like a moral dilemma even though I know it won't have an affect later on.
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Post by mikonreborn on Jun 29, 2014 20:35:37 GMT
SEASON 2 SPOILERS!!! On the notion that season 2 wasn't as good but it's still a thing you wait for, i agree. It definitely feels like the dialogue impact is way less developed. I mean, i played season 1 recently and i realized just how complex episode 4 and 5 gets with the alternate dialogue, hell i even found some things i didn't knew about in the season on my latest playthrough. Season 2 feels like a straight road and you barely get a say-in into things that characters ACTUALLY remember, and it progressively starts getting into a more bland survival type of thing, like the type you'd get at DayZ or Rust or whatever. I didn't care that Alvin died. Put as many sad violins as you can, i barely know the guy besides the fact he went skiing, he's black and somehow manages to keep his weight during a 5-day walk. Walter had probably the most impactful death because the guy was so nice, and he gained plenty of character development, enough to make me know him better. Most definitely the guy i cared about the most. And it's kind of a shame, season 2 episode 1 was going places for me and it started with some real big moments and got you a new group that could be well developed in the next episode, the first episode got me hooked and ready for some great stuff. But Telltale was like "Noo, let's kill all of these people because it's sad and shocking and stuff!" But you're not gonna make me sad and shocked if you're gonna arse around with shorter episodes and a complete lack of interaction with any of these characters! I mean come on, man! Stop killing everyone off, and give them some time to say more than 10 sentences! It's..still a good game. I get this kind of emotion everytime a new episodes comes around. Whenever a TWAU episode comes out and i'm downloading it, i'm all excited and happy, ready to play the newest installment and see how the game will amaze me this time. But if it's a TWD S2 episode, i'm not really all that excited anymore, i just kind of react like "Well, let's see how this goes..." The season is overall very lackluster in quality and character development. I've been in a denial before, i thought the episodes were fantastic. But then i look at them twice, and i realize what's going wrong here, i get what you guys mean. It's just..dumb sometimes..where did our Telltale go? I disagree with the sad aspect, there is a artform to making people cry, there is, and yes, it matters a lot who is it and how much we like him, but it matters a hell of a lot more how you do it, I loved Omid, but I didn't cry when he died, I was angry, I thought it was dumb and a waste! I didn't know Alvin all that well at all, your right, but for me his death in episode 3 was far more sad then Omid just because it was set up and executed better, its as simple as that. Oh, and the Telltale we knew and loved, it died with the old forum far as I am concerned. That's absolute bull, man. The execution isn't gonna do you any good if there's no build-up to it. In fact, Alvin's death was as much of a waste as Omid's was. You save the guy, and guess what, he disappears for most of episode 3 and then when you meet him, he gets killed 3 minutes later! I barely know Alvin. He killed a guy, that's all. That's all we know about his more personal details. But that's very vague character development. Compared to season 1 where you could go around asking people questions and get to know them better, we didn't do friendly chatter with Alvin and we revealed to the whole group way more information about Clementine, then they revealed their information to us. So far, the best information we got out of most people in the group, is their parents are dead. But here's a fact for you.
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