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Post by Antero on Dec 24, 2016 9:53:05 GMT
"To me Kenny's death felt right" LOL Lol. Sonic isn't a shill, he's just a zealous fanboy. We've known him for literal years. Isn't that almost the same though? when someone is so blinded by their fanboyism they become an apologist and all their arguments to justify the company's decision come up as straight up shilling? Reminds me of that freelancepolicefan dude from the TT forums, they can give him 10 minute episodes and he'll gag on Telltale's balls and thank them for it.
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Post by Teacakes on Dec 24, 2016 10:26:47 GMT
Some day I'm going to write a long TWD fanfiction about what happened after Kenny, Clem and AJ left Wellington, how they coped as a family, where they went, what they did, leading up to a better Kenny death.
It'll make me feel better.
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Post by Tommy Angelo on Dec 24, 2016 12:53:34 GMT
The only things Telltale has put out that I have HATED are Eps. 2 and 4 of TWAU. You're making it real hard to ignore every time you say TWAU was bad, but this part of the post riled me up more than anything else since the old Jake - and I decided to finally say something. Firstly, I'll adress TWAU and other TT games, and later I'll adress something more personal. Episode 2 is the weakest in TWAU, that goes without saying. It's still better than recent TT outings, though. Snow is dead - for newcomers it comes as a shock; for those familiar with the comic it's not, but it still sparks the curiosity how TT gets out of this. The majority of the episode doesn't push the story forward, but it expands upon the criminal side of Fabletown. Bigby and Snow go to Holly to tell her that her sister's dead. She has time to grive, process it, lash out angirly on Fabletown officials, say that they had their differences and provide a clue that she was a sex worker. It's Snow, who begins to change after finding out that someone made Lily impersonate her to live out a twisted fantasy, consoles Holly. She tries to make the best out of the situation so that she knows that Fables look out for their own. For the sake of comparison: *Greg is shot* Michonne to Sam: I know you're sad, but it'll be time for that later, we have to go! *Mariana is shot* Tripp to Javi: I know you're sad, but it'll be time for that later, we have to go! *burial-determinant, so it can be left out without payoff - as in my playthourgh* *Berto is shot* Michonne/Pete: Berto! *then nothing* *Nick is found dead in ATR* - absolutely nothing*Sarah is killed on the observation deck* Clem to Jane: You could've done more! *then nothing* TWAU actually lets you witness Holly's conflicting emotions while breaking the news to her. In other games, you are rushed off to another scene without letting that sink in. [If providing a counterpoint about Sam's dad burial being a bit longer than usual mourning - it appears in Michonne finale, where there's a supposed sense of urgency that Norma might attack. A place for things falling in a 'quiet before storm' category was in Episode 2 and that's where this scene should've taken place.] TWAU also takes place in a strip club/brothel, but, contrary to almost any other game, it's not just a sleazy clip joint you see in most games. It's doesn't exist just to shout out to the player, 'Here, look at some tits!'. (Of course, some people believe it was just that, but I'll explain why they're wrong in a minute). You are shown a stripper who clearly doesn't want to be there, receiving abuse from her employer; Hans feels conflicted about what happens there; Vivian outright says that this place cateers to different tastes of Fables. You're introduced to a place that's not supposed to scream 'it's an M-rated game!' - quite the contrary, it serves a narrative purpose to show how far Fables can go to survive; you're supposed to feel sick that such a thing can happen. This iteration of a strip club is just gross and is supposed to reflect most of the real-life ones. And Georgie is not antagonizing you just because - these girls came to him (or CM) for help to get help they didn't get from their government. You are witnessing a tragedy of people who will sacrifice their dignity to try and live another day. And Georgie can abuse them any way he wants, because he knows they don't have any other place to go. And tells Bigby - not without right - that he has to take care of his business, because it affects him directly and cannot wait for the government to react. Episode 4 isn't like among TT fandom for reasons I deem stupid. With 2 episodes left in the series and after a reveal at the end of Ep3, people expected Telltale to jump straight into the endgame and showdown with CM. Why would you expect that? Bigby was almost killed and Snow assumes the role of the Deupty Mayor while asking how did Fabletown came down to this. Episode 4 further expands upon the point made by Episode 2 - that people turned to the shady businessman when their goverment ignored them. This episode serves to explain to people that CM's activities are not just limited to a strip-club - one venue would be easy to miss by the governmnet. Episode 4 makes you realize that it CM built his own government, having people anywhere he could reach. The worst part of that? Even with Crane in charge, the person who enforces justice in the town - Bigby - didn't realize what was happening. And people, even though abused, supported the scheme, because Crooked Man provided for them. Johann's shop was a front for a long time, but at least he got to keep it and got money to afford living. Fables pawned many of their stuff at Lucky Pawn, but at least they got some money to live on. Even by Ep5 some of them realized that getting rid of CM won't help, because that would get them to the starting point - with government not helping them and looking for money elsewhere. My point? These episodes build a greater image of Fabletown which, omniously, reflects times we live in. Why people hated them? Because there were no meaningful choices and not enough flashy stuff. Explanation: no TT game has meaningful choices, you're always railroaded onto one predetermined path. People liked TWDS1, because - despite that - characters' behaviour was sometimes altered slightly depending on the choices; also, the story didn't do what Kirkman or the TV show went for - us vs. them. Ep1 was about coming to terms with what happened and creating relationships with others; Ep2 showed that the apocalypse can turn people into monsters - not just for kicks, killing and abusing anyone just because (Carver Ep3, Negan, The New Frontier), but because they needed a way to survive (St Johns, Kenny). TWAU might not have that, but it had a meaningful story that could be understood a lot better when you're not just skimming through it. In the end it wasn't a story about a murder or evolution of Bigby - it was a story about human tragedy and that there's almost nothing you can do to prevent it. CM was gone, but the problems remain and they're not going to disappear. And people's complains about Ep2 and Ep4? "Nothing happens in Ep2 so it's boring and it has a lot of glitches.", "Ep4 is 60 minutes long, Bloody Mary and CM appeared in Ep3, why isn't there a showdown with them, we're just walking around doing nothing". News flash: a lot of things happened in Ep2. This is the transition episode where you should start looking at the possible bigger picture at hand, where there's a slow burning realization that the government you're protecting and working for is corrupted. Ep4 was never going to be a showdown, because that's what a season finale is for - realizing that, TT came up with an episode that makes you realize this isn't just you vs one man, but a govermnet vs government - and you're likely to lose that fight, even if CM is brought down. People often don't realize how complex the story is because they simply prefer other things. What gets to me is that you often say that, say, Michonne is superior to TWAU. In what way? Character's development? TWAU's characters are consistent - even Snow, who has the most drastic change over the series, but it's fully justified. Michonne? There's literaly nothing. Sam's dad who's mad just because, then is compassionate, then is an asshole again and gets killed. Greg and Paige, who are... well, there? Sam, who draggs us into conflict, then out of blue wants to be our companion but still behaves like an asshole with the only redemptive moment coming before she dies? I'm not counting her brothers, because being scared and being a kid is not a character development. And the glitches? Every TT game has them. Money got stuck in Bigby's hand? Who cares when Alvin can pop up in some scenes in Ep3 even if he's killed. That's worse if you ask me. And then you're still saying that characters and story were better, but instead of proving that in a reasonable way, you pop up fan-made trailers and videos from Michonne showing off all the flashy stuff. There's nothing wrong with prefering action-oriented titles to the story-oriented ones, but that's not an argument to say it has better characters or story. Which is where my offer comes from: you don't like TWAU? Fine, that's your opinion to which you're entitled to. You rank it lower/higher on your TT list? This is fine too. You say that Michonne is better than TWAU? Okay. But saying that it has better story or characters without actually coming up with an argument that's reasonable? No. So please, stop criticizing the game you clearly don't understand and using that "criticism" to propel the game you like better. Stop dragging TWAU into that little war you're fighting. You seem to like to pick on that game without any actual reason, do that when you'll find one. It seems like you're trying so hard to get people to like TT games, but Michonne simply lacks in substance - as well as some other recent TT outings. A New Frontier improves about some things substantially, but that's another matter. I still didn't post my thoughts about TWDS3, but I believe that the game is at least on about the same level as TWDS2. Contrary to other people, I also think that some flashbacks, while not TT greatest material, were good - even the Kenny one - and also in line with character's behaviour (Jane included). The only average-to-bad one was in Wellington.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 16:09:43 GMT
Some day I'm going to write a long TWD fanfiction about what happened after Kenny, Clem and AJ left Wellington, how they coped as a family, where they went, what they did, leading up to a better Kenny death. It'll make me feel better. Dude, if we both end up writing fics about the same thing at some point, it'd be really interesting to see how they differ or are the same. How two different Kenny fans can write the same type of story, yet how those stories would probably be drastically different.
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Post by Teacakes on Dec 24, 2016 16:34:50 GMT
It would be fun to see.
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Post by jake frost on Dec 24, 2016 17:31:27 GMT
Some day I'm going to write a long TWD fanfiction about what happened after Kenny, Clem and AJ left Wellington, how they coped as a family, where they went, what they did, leading up to a better Kenny death. It'll make me feel better. Dude, if we both end up writing fics about the same thing at some point, it'd be really interesting to see how they differ or are the same. How two different Kenny fans can write the same type of story, yet how those stories would probably be drastically different. Throw my little torture scene into the mix and then let people pick the one that they feel works best for them as their 'canon' version - that's like... more alternate scenes that TWDG3 has already.
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Post by Autobot Sonic Part II on Dec 24, 2016 17:55:36 GMT
What are you even saying? This doesn't happen AT ALL! If you pick the Wellington ending she touches the scar on her cheek. If you pick the Kenny Ending she touches the scar on her forehead. If you pick the Jane ending she looks at the tattoo, and if you pick the alone ending she looks at her missing finger! I mean I assume you're talking about immediately after Clem wakes up from the flashback right? Oh. Every LP I've seen Javier goes with Tripp, and in that it's always different.
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Post by Autobot Sonic Part II on Dec 24, 2016 18:22:34 GMT
And then you're still saying that characters and story were better, but instead of proving that in a reasonable way, you pop up fan-made trailers and videos from Michonne showing off all the flashy stuff. There's nothing wrong with prefering action-oriented titles to the story-oriented ones, but that's not an argument to say it has better characters or story. Which is where my offer comes from: you don't like TWAU? Fine, that's your opinion to which you're entitled to. You rank it lower/higher on your TT list? This is fine too. You say that Michonne is better than TWAU? Okay. But saying that it has better story or characters without actually coming up with an argument that's reasonable? No. So please, stop criticizing the game you clearly don't understand and using that "criticism" to propel the game you like better. Stop dragging TWAU into that little war you're fighting. You seem to like to pick on that game without any actual reason, do that when you'll find one. It seems like you're trying so hard to get people to like TT games, but Michonne simply lacks in substance - as well as some other recent TT outings. A New Frontier improves about some things substantially, but that's another matter. The reason I like Michonne over TWAU is because of how much better Norma and Randall were as antagonists than CM ever was. In TWAU, CM was shown as your sterotypical crime lord (basically a multi-dimensional Falcone) who tried to get the public masses on his side. But NEVER in TWAU (unless you burn Greenleaf's tree) does the game cast him in a positive, or anyway redeeming light. Michonne does the exact opposite of that; we're introduced to Sam and Greg as outright liars who are just concerned about their family. When we're introduced to Norma and Randall, they're very reasonable at first. The whole first conversation with Norma shows us how forgiving she is, saying that she even gave Sam a second chance after she was caught stealing the first time. Randall on the other hand despite his aggressive attitude, is also seen to be somewhat compassionate, holding back on beating Michonne and Greg when Norma asks him to. Even the whole final encounter with Norma in Ep. 3 casts her in a sympathetic light; she lost Monroe in the course of half a day, her people are left homeless, and all she wants is to just have her brother back and leave Michonne alone. Hell, if Randall didn't try to attack Michonne after she lets him go, or if Michonne didn't kill Randall to start with, she probably would've held true to this! And as for Michonne not having any emotional impact, what are you talking about?! We see throughout Ep. 2 just how much Greg's death affects Sam and the rest of her family. Practically the last half hour of the episode is dedicated SOLELY to that! Then in Ep. 3 we see how John's death then affects Sam and her brothers, where the first half of the episode is practically, once again, is SOLELY DEDICATED to showing his death's effects on them. This is even seen to some extent at the end when Berto and (determinantly) Oak die. Pete is seen mourning them for a brief moment at least. And don't get me started on Michonne's hallucinations throughout the entire game. Throughout all three episodes we see just how much Michonne's daughters meant to her, and how she's constantly beating herself up over the fact that she has no idea what happened to them, all because she left them all those years ago. This made the final choice make sense to Michonne, as she's slowly coming to terms with her decision to leave them, and in the end she finally learns to let go of them and move on with her life. And THAT is why I liked Michonne more over TWAU. It had better antagonists, and characters' deaths DID have lasting effects on others, maybe even more than TWAU. That a good enough argument for you?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 18:26:23 GMT
"Randall is shown to be compassionate because he stopped torturing people when he was asked!"
Fucking what
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 18:37:05 GMT
And not to hijack this debate too much, but:
The Crooked Man is shown to have improved peoples lives in a twisted way. The black market glamours, he gives Beast and Beauty jobs so they can keep living in luxury, he does run a number of businesses and operations that, in some twisted way, benefit people. There's an argument to be made that he's honestly not much worse than Crane or Bluebeard. Not only does this show him to be a more complicated villain, as there's an argument to be made that to some extent, he really does care about the citizens of Fabletown(giving Tiny Tim a chance when no one else would is another example), but it's thematically resonant. The conflict between corrupt governments and criminal syndicates was Wolf's big thematic thrust, and it's villain is arguably where it was most successful in that. Compare that to Norma, whose inclusion in the story is not thematically resonant(I'm not saying it has to be, I'm just pointing out that it isn't), and while she is shown to not be one-dimensionally evil, she just doesn't command the same presence that the Crooked Man did. Of course, that last thing is mostly subjective, but the first isn't.
Then you've got another good foil with Bloody Mary and Randall. Both are irredeemably evil monsters who are nonetheless fantastically entertaining on screen. They're what my fiction workshop professor would call "delicious villains". The love to hate type. Now, it's completely subjective to which one works more for you, honestly it's not even that clear cut for me. But, that's what they are. The Wolf Among Us comics seemed to make a mistake in trying to give depth to Bloody Mary, and it would be a mistake to assign false depth to Randall in your argument here.
I mean, you're welcome to your opinion, but come on man. Some of what you're saying is just flat-out wrong. TWAU did paint the Crooked Man in a positive light, and as I posted earlier... not torturing someone isn't showing compassion. Randall was a love-to-hate villain, don't make him more than that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 18:37:42 GMT
(sorry, it's just been a while since this place has been active enough for good back-and-forth debates like this. It's kind of refreshing)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 18:54:34 GMT
And then you're still saying that characters and story were better, but instead of proving that in a reasonable way, you pop up fan-made trailers and videos from Michonne showing off all the flashy stuff. There's nothing wrong with prefering action-oriented titles to the story-oriented ones, but that's not an argument to say it has better characters or story. Which is where my offer comes from: you don't like TWAU? Fine, that's your opinion to which you're entitled to. You rank it lower/higher on your TT list? This is fine too. You say that Michonne is better than TWAU? Okay. But saying that it has better story or characters without actually coming up with an argument that's reasonable? No. So please, stop criticizing the game you clearly don't understand and using that "criticism" to propel the game you like better. Stop dragging TWAU into that little war you're fighting. You seem to like to pick on that game without any actual reason, do that when you'll find one. It seems like you're trying so hard to get people to like TT games, but Michonne simply lacks in substance - as well as some other recent TT outings. A New Frontier improves about some things substantially, but that's another matter. The reason I like Michonne over TWAU is because of how much better Norma and Randall were as antagonists than CM ever was. In TWAU, CM was shown as your sterotypical crime lord (basically a multi-dimensional Falcone) who tried to get the public masses on his side. But NEVER in TWAU (unless you burn Greenleaf's tree) does the game cast him in a positive, or anyway redeeming light. Michonne does the exact opposite of that; we're introduced to Sam and Greg as outright liars who are just concerned about their family. When we're introduced to Norma and Randall, they're very reasonable at first. The whole first conversation with Norma shows us how forgiving she is, saying that she even gave Sam a second chance after she was caught stealing the first time. Randall on the other hand despite his aggressive attitude, is also seen to be somewhat compassionate, holding back on beating Michonne and Greg when Norma asks him to. Even the whole final encounter with Norma in Ep. 3 casts her in a sympathetic light; she lost Monroe in the course of half a day, her people are left homeless, and all she wants is to just have her brother back and leave Michonne alone. Hell, if Randall didn't try to attack Michonne after she lets him go, or if Michonne didn't kill Randall to start with, she probably would've held true to this! And as for Michonne not having any emotional impact, what are you talking about?! We see throughout Ep. 2 just how much Greg's death affects Sam and the rest of her family. Practically the last half hour of the episode is dedicated SOLELY to that! Then in Ep. 3 we see how John's death then affects Sam and her brothers, where the first half of the episode is practically, once again, is SOLELY DEDICATED to showing his death's effects on them. This is even seen to some extent at the end when Berto and (determinantly) Oak die. Pete is seen mourning them for a brief moment at least. And don't get me started on Michonne's hallucinations throughout the entire game. Throughout all three episodes we see just how much Michonne's daughters meant to her, and how she's constantly beating herself up over the fact that she has no idea what happened to them, all because she left them all those years ago. This made the final choice make sense to Michonne, as she's slowly coming to terms with her decision to leave them, and in the end she finally learns to let go of them and move on with her life. And THAT is why I liked Michonne more over TWAU. It had better antagonists, and characters' deaths DID have lasting effects on others, maybe even more than TWAU. That a good enough argument for you? A good villain doesn't make a good game, a good protagonist is more important, why should we care about the story if we don't care about what happens to the characters, and Michonne's protagonists where god awful, Michonne was mind numbingly dull, Sam was boring as fuck too, Greg was so dull I forgot he existed and bar Pete the boat crew don't do shit so Pete was the only one who seemed even remotely interesting but the episodes weren't long enough for me to actually care about him since he didn't have enough time to do anything to make me care. Not to mention the fact that they tried so hard to make Norma compassionate and make the player "the bad guy" that it felt completely forced and she ended up being bland because of it too, and the only reason people liked Randall was because of how much of a shit head he was, he at the very least had character because of it. With TWAU, Bigby was great, you could make him snarky, compassionate or just a straight up prick whereas Michonne she was always just a moody badass. I liked or hated almost every character in TWAU when in Michonne I only found one mildly entertaining, you know Michonne fucked up when Mr fucking Toad was a better character than anyone in the entirety of Michonne.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 19:08:07 GMT
You know, with all this talk of TWAU, I decided to go back and watch the trailers, and you know what it reminded me of?
Telltale has already done a good determinant background character. Lawrence. He shows up a few times he you save him, and he's got things to say. He doesn't impact the plot hugely, but his presence is at felt at least to some degree.
Seriously, how hard could it have been for Telltale to just put in the effort(they had 2 years) and make Clem different based on your choices? If she values family, she doesn't try to take anything from Javi, she just helps, but if she's more cunning and focused on herself, then she still tries to take the van. It's wrecked either way and due to Prescott falling, Clem is stick with you, so it ultimately is a minor change, but one that it felt. Have Kenny or Jane at Prescott and escape with the group. You still have flashbacks showing what they went through, but it just kind of shows Clem's story during scene transitions, like how they're implemented already. Kenny and Jane don't majorly impact things, they have the same basic reaction of being a father/big sister to Clem, take her side, etc. Sure, it might feel weird for Kenny/Jane to have a more passive role, but it could work, and they could be given more active roles during the flashbacks. Include them in hubs and what-not to make them feel present. Kill them at some point in the season if they can't keep it going, but give them a big scene, a proper goodbye.
It honestly wouldn't be that hard, and Telltale has done it before. to a lesser degree, sure, but they had two years to work on A New Frontier, the continuation to thier biggest franchise. They could have done it, and they should have.
Or, you know, kill Kenny/Jane later in the flashbacks throughout the season so they aren't just tossed aside.
Or even failing that, make the flashbacks make sense.
And I don't know about everyone else, but I honestly would have preferred no flashbacks as opposed to what we got.
Telltale rally just didn't try... They didn't care, and that fucking hurts because Telltale, to me, is one of my favorite storytellers, as a studio. Stories matter, they can make people care. Telltale did that... and they still are to some degree, but whoever's working on ANF didn't care about the previous seasons, and it hurts that... this is what happened.
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Post by jake frost on Dec 24, 2016 19:21:01 GMT
Ignoring the traitor bullshit, does Royland/Duncan count as determinant? You're pretty much picking which one you want to see more of, and the other character moves aside to make space for the one you picked. Not to mention it does somewhat impact the plot, particularly the face-off with Gryff in Episode 3. Royland exacerbates the situation which ends in Talia getting pushed down, while Duncan tries to calm everyone down. Those end in two different choices (Help Talia up/Punch Gryff, or Help Duncan/Punch Gryff). Plus they have a *fairly* large role during Episode 6, even if they're effectively a minor character who shares the others' animations. I believe Royland reacts negatively while Duncan reacts positively if you call off the ambush in Asher's playthrough, too?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 19:34:12 GMT
Ignoring the traitor bullshit, does Royland/Duncan count as determinant? You're pretty much picking which one you want to see more of, and the other character moves aside to make space for the one you picked. Not to mention it does somewhat impact the plot, particularly the face-off with Gryff in Episode 3. Royland exacerbates the situation which ends in Talia getting pushed down, while Duncan tries to calm everyone down. Those end in two different choices (Help Talia up/Punch Gryff, or Help Duncan/Punch Gryff). Plus they have a *fairly* large role during Episode 6, even if they're effectively a minor character who shares the others' animations. I believe Royland reacts negatively while Duncan reacts positively if you call off the ambush in Asher's playthrough, too? Royland/Duncan are probably my favorite part of GOT, aside from the traitor shit. Depending on who you granted sentinel, you get entirely different scenes throughout the game. They're great.
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