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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2018 20:15:33 GMT
I thought pretty much all the acting was bad in TPM, aside from Ewan McGregor, plus seeing Natalie Portman coming on to Jake Lloyd was... iffy, even though Padme was supposed to be 14 she always looked like an adult to me so yeah. I found nothing funny about JarJar at all. And the Gungans I really hate. They just seem like a species of clowns. Also, I really dislike the midichlorians crap. It took away too much of the mystery of the Force for me. The only real redeeming factors in my eyes were Ewan McGregor and the duel with Darth Maul. I'm not saying not to like it or anything, I love it when people like Star Wars, I'm just throwing my hat in to say why I dislike it. Well, everyone was pretty wooden, but idk I thought they were basically okay aisde from Jake Llyod. Also, yeah, the age difference between Jake Llyod and Natalie Portman looks a lot bigger than it is and it's uncomfortable. Like I said, Jar Jar is mostly annoying, but idk i didn't hate him. He's just irritating. And yeah, the Force basically being like, what, aliens? That's stupid. Anakin being Space Jesus is stupid. But, y'know.... again, for all that, i think it was basically a good movie, and it's issues didn't seem much greater to me than those of A New Hope. To be fair, Anakin being space Jesus actually has some cool solid theories behind it later in the prequels.
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Post by Rock114 on Jan 13, 2018 21:15:59 GMT
I thought pretty much all the acting was bad in TPM, aside from Ewan McGregor, plus seeing Natalie Portman coming on to Jake Lloyd was... iffy, even though Padme was supposed to be 14 she always looked like an adult to me so yeah. I found nothing funny about JarJar at all. And the Gungans I really hate. They just seem like a species of clowns. Also, I really dislike the midichlorians crap. It took away too much of the mystery of the Force for me. The only real redeeming factors in my eyes were Ewan McGregor and the duel with Darth Maul. I'm not saying not to like it or anything, I love it when people like Star Wars, I'm just throwing my hat in to say why I dislike it. Well, everyone was pretty wooden, but idk I thought they were basically okay aisde from Jake Llyod. Also, yeah, the age difference between Jake Llyod and Natalie Portman looks a lot bigger than it is and it's uncomfortable. Like I said, Jar Jar is mostly annoying, but idk i didn't hate him. He's just irritating. And yeah, the Force basically being like, what, aliens? That's stupid. Anakin being Space Jesus is stupid. But, y'know.... again, for all that, i think it was basically a good movie, and it's issues didn't seem much greater to me than those of A New Hope. I forgot about the space Jesus thing. Yeah, I hated that too. And midichlorians aren't aliens, they're basically bacteria from how it's described in the movie. Imagine if the Common Cold gave you telekinesis. That's midichlorians.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 16:12:41 GMT
Right, saw Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith... I'll split this into two posts.
So Attack of the Clones is just straight up bad.
Biggest problem for both movies: Hayden Christensen is a terrible, terrible actor. Every single line is wrong somehow. I... I'd be impressed? If I didn't think he was ruining what could be good movies. Like, a huge part of this movie is the relationship between Anakin and Padme, which is central to the next movie, and... it just does not work, and it's because not only do Hayden and Natalie have zero chemistry together, but Hayden manages to make all of Anakin's flirting come off as super fucking creepy and weird(a lot of this is the script, too. George Lucas... should not be allowed to write scripts for Star Wars...). So, a huge part of this movie is just absolutely ruined by his acting... great.
So, the one positive I could come up with was the action, but honestly, I've got an issue with that, too. For the most part, the duels are fine. Lots of mobility and tricks to keep things tense, plus some pretty high stakes given that this is a prequel(I didn't know Anakin lost his arm, so that was surprising). But anything it goes big... uh, no.
The screen is just way, way too busy. There's never a clear focus and it keeps cutting away before giving the viewer any time to get their bearings. Not to mention all the flashy CGI lightsabers and blasters on mostly CGI backgrounds obscuring the actors who look lost in a sea of greenscreen... The entire factory scene is nearly impossible to follow.
The big battle at the end has a huge problem with prop design. A whole slew of new designs gets thrown at us in that final battle with absolutely nothing signifying which ships or vehicles belong to which side, and with the camera having no focal point and everything being seen from super far away in a sea of bad CGI.... yikes.
So, action, aside from the one on one duels, is a wash. The romance between Padme and Anakin is a wash. Anakin himself is a wash. So, what does this movie has?
Well, in Phantom Menace, I noticed that the prequels were moving away from mythology to politics. That's pretty interesting! But what's this? Oh no! There actually aren't complicated politics deconstructing the conflict between democracy and fascism because everyone is being controlled by an evil space wizard.
.....
..............
.....what? I just.... it's so fucking stupid. Like, I think it really does want to talk about the dangers of fascism and also maybe make comment on corruption in politics... but none of that works when all of your conflicts are fabricated by an evil space wizard. These movies could have been interesting, they could have moved away from the more simplistic conflict of good vs. evil and actually gone with a more politically driven story about fascism vs. democracy, breaking down the weaknesses of democracy and the danger of fascism. That would've been interesting, and an evolution of the series! But uh.... no.... evil space wizard is behind literally everything.... ok
So the themes are a wash.
I guess Obi-Wan's storyline is pretty good. Also, I do like Padme when she's not being Anakin's love interest. She's driven, smart about the politics of this world, can hold her own in a fight, and in a better version of this story that didn't break complex political conflicts down to "the space wizard did it", she would've been the natural foil to Anakin's leanings towards fascism. But, she's still mostly Anakin's love interest, so.... yeah.
I think this is, technically, the worst movie I've seen so far, but I think I might've actually disliked Revenge of the Sith more...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 16:27:08 GMT
I'm kind of torn on Revenge of the Sith? It does have some cool stuff. As far as first acts go, the one in Revenge is up there. Better than in the previous two movies, and maaaaaaybe better than Return of the Jedi, which'd make it my second favorite to the Battle on Hoth. So, it opens strong.
Later on, there are some great individual moments. Obi-Wan fighting General Grievous, Order 66, the final duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin, the fight between Yoda and Palpatine... there are moments where I thought this might be a great movie.
Unfortunately, there's also some stuff that really irks me. Padme goes from being a mostly interesting and cool character in Phantom Menace, to a sometimes really cool and interesting character in Attack of the Clones, to... just... Anakin's love interest. Completely. She has no other bearing on the plot than to die and drive Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader. That is just... so lame, and such a waste of a really good character.
Also, as previously mentioned, Palpatine being behind everything is super, super lame and robs a potentially interesting story of any kind of thematic depth. There's this whole conspiracy, a constructed war, a Senate perpetually in danger from fascists, separatists, and possible even theologians, but.... none of those potential conflicts are explored because they're not real because everything is Palpatine. It's... it's all Palpatine.
Hey, maybe waging war on the separatists in the name of democracy is itself a failing of that democracy? I think Pamde has like, one line about this but otherwise, the separatists are Palptines pawns so they're evil so it doesn't matter.
Even the Jedi acknowledge the danger of taking control of the Senate in the name of protecting Democracy from Fascism. Is there an interesting conflict here? No.
Wow, the Senate happily accepts Palpatine as Emperor! What does this say? Nothing. Again, Padme has like, one line about it. Other than that, nothing.
Okay, so, it doesn't have much going for it in terms of complexity, but how about Anakin's transformation into Darth Vader! He's previously expressed interest in both fascism and the dark side, perhaps his transformation into Darth Vader was inevitable? Oh, no, he's tricked into becoming Darth Vader by Palpatine because Padme is going to die in childbirth.... of course.
Attack of the Clones is clearly the worse movie is we're speaking clearly, but Revenge of the Sith honestly just bothers me more because it had so many chances to be more than it was and achieve greatness and it just.... doesn't. It's just happy with letting the evil space wizard be behind everything instead of letting the rise of the empire and Darth Vader be an actually interesting story than maybe even says something about these characters and this world. No, it's all the fault of a single character. And all of that is just.... so, so lame. It just.... irks me, so much.
Attack of the Clones is the worse movie, but Revenge of the Sith is the more frustrating movie.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2018 16:28:08 GMT
So, new list:
The Empire Strikes Back (9) > Return of the Jedi (8.5) > A New Hope (7) > The Phantom Menace (7) > Attack of the Clones (3) > Revenge of the Sith (??)
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Post by Niccc on Jan 14, 2018 20:43:50 GMT
this is where the fun begins
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Post by Rock114 on Jan 15, 2018 2:41:01 GMT
The Prequels to provide the best memes tho. Undeniable.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 6:37:04 GMT
The Force Awakens is my favorite movie so far.
There's something about this one that allowed me to connect with it on a level I couldn't with the others. I have no doubt part of that is the awe factor. This movie hasn't been taken into the popular culture yet, so whereas I thought stuff like the Battle on Hoth was cool, I couldn't be awed by it because I knew it was coming, and I generally knew what it looked like. On the other hand, when those X-Wings flew in across the water and Poe Dameron started blasting Tie-fighter after Tie-Fighter out of the sky, I was smiling ear to ear.
I also never expected this film to either: redeem the series after the prequels. bring back the magic of the originals. or take a bold new direction and drive the series forwards. So, not being weighted down by my expectations, I do think I may have enjoyed this film possibly more than some lifelong Star Wars fans.
This is not to say that my enjoyment of TFA was solely due to metatextual reasons, in fact, t wasn't even mostly because of that. It's simply because, narratively, this is a better movie. Hot Take, I know, but from my recent experience of the others: They all suffer from very similar problems. Clunky, stiff dialogue, awkward plotting, unbalanced pacing, etc. In the better movies like ESB or ROTJ, these are minor issues that simply drag the film down a bit. In the worse movies like AOTC, ROTS, and even in the okay-good movies like TPM and ANH, these really hurt overall enjoyment of the movies. Honestly, I think the issue might be even worse in the ones that are just good but not great. My biggest issue with A New Hope is that it's slow, and seems to just sort of bid its time between big action beats. The pacing in that movie is almost shockingly bad even as it excels at worldbuilding and character.
The Force Awakens is the first movie in the series to not have those issues. The dialogue flows really well and conveys a lot of character and emotion while being precise and snappy. The pacing allows for a movie that connects big action beats with slower character moments in a much more natural way as opposed to the stop and start pacing of previous films. The plot is tied tightly into character and theme, allowing for far less moments of "wait why is that happening?".
Oh! And let's talk about theme! I really appreciate what the film is trying to do as far as basically being a "reboot" or A New Hope, but taking that as the framework for a metafictional story about legacy. You see this in the interactions between the old and new cast, with Rey forming a close bond with Han Solo that is almost parental, as well as the actual parental relationship between Han and Ben. This connection is at times subverted and reaffirmed, which I think rather than keeping the film from making a statement, allows it to say that legacy can both hold you back and help you. Perhaps not a powerful statement by itself, but the sheer amount of sentimentalism injected into the delivery of this message allows it to resonant very deeply. And the film keeps doing this: BB-8 and R2-D2, Kylo Ren and Darth Vader, the First Order and the Empire. Rather than just being reskins as I think a lot of people view these elements, I think this was on purpose to allow the film to affirm its legacy as a Star Wars film and what that means both for older fans and newer fans, but to also subvert that relationship(it definetly does more affirming than subverting, at least in this one).
Also, there are far fewer space wizards so far, so that's nice. It allows characters to have agency.
Still, I think sticking on theme too long would be a mistake because while I think it's maybe deeper than people give it credit for, themes are still not the film's main interest. I'd peg that as character and emotion, which, thankfully, I'm more of a character girl anyway! I can forgive thematically/structurally weak stories if they have strong characters(this is why I still say I'm a Walking Dead fan). Thankfully, The Force Awakens is strong in all of these aspects, but character especially.
Finn is maybe one of my favorite Star Wars characters. He's funny, loyal, and incredibly driven, but held back by cowardice, past trauma, and maybe even a bit of self-loathing. There's an internal conflict present in him that the film exploits in really interesting ways. He's the first one to use Luke's lightsaber and he saves Poe, but he's also a liar and a coward. His devotion to Rey and Poe just endears him to me so much, that I'm already saying he's gonna be my favorite character of the new trilogy.
Rey follows closely behind. Holy wow that extended introduction to her is such a great use of visual storytelling. It's nothing groundbreaking, but it's a really strong use of the medium to characterize her before we've even heard her say anything. And, she's a really great character once we get into the action. Her facade of confidence, torn between wanting to be part of something larger and being held back by her past, outright fear and confusion of the force and her role as hero conflicting with an undeniable attraction to both... Like Finn, she's defined by conflict(in fact, seeing as this is also a big part of Kylo Ren's character, being torn between the dark and the light side, I'm willing to say this is a purposeful motif), and also like Finn, she's just such a charming and likeable character.
Poe is awesome. He's explored the least, but he's awesome. He's just a cool, handsome, charming action hero. Love that guy.
And Kylo Ren is, so far, a great villain. He fits really well into the two themes of legacy and conflict. His whole purpose is to live up to Darth Vader, and fearing he will not be able to, even though he's far closer to Anakin than he could imagine. That central conflict between light and dark that comes to a head with his confrontation with Han Solo is also a really interesting part of his character. He's alternately scary and pitiful, and sometimes even both at the same time.
Also, all of the returning cast is great but if I talked about literally every character then that'd be the whole post. As it is, it's probably most of the post.
So... yeah. Craft wish, I think this is the best film, and I certainly just flat-out enjoyed in the most. I'm tempted to give it a 10/10, because, within my scoring scale, a 10/10 is symbolic of simply being an all-time Favorite. Well, I'd need to sit on it more, I literally just saw it, but I'm giving it a 10*, with the * noting that this is temporary, and will either be made permanaent or reduced to a 9 based on how i feel about it after a couple months.
So, new scale:
The Force Awakens (10*) > Empire Strikes Back (9) > Return of the Jedi (8.5) > A New Hope (7) > The Phantom Menace (7) > Attack of the Clones (3) > Revenge of the Sith (0) (given that the zero is also symbolic, I've decided ROTS deserves a 0)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 7:01:09 GMT
Sidenote: The complaint that Rey is a mary-sue is bullshit For one, it's kinda baked into the series. Rey, Anakin, and Luke are all pretty much the chosen one, so of course, they're all gonna be super skilled with mostly superficial flaws. For what it's worth though, I actually think Rey is the best when it comes to this(yet somehow is the one singled out the most by the fandom? Well, to avoid flaring tempers lets just pretend we don't know why that's the case) So, I think we can just count out Anakin, right? He's Space Jesus and takes out a droid army when he's 8. He's clearly the worst offender. Between Luke and Rey, let's look at their past before the movies start. Luke is a farmer. Up until the third act, this is all we know about Luke. Despite this, he is able to shoot a blaster with decent aim, pilot an X-Wing(and is better at it than any of the rebellions trained pilots), and uses space magic to make an impossible shot that, again, none of the rebellion pilots could make. This is justified because at the beginning of the third act, we meet a childhood friend of Luke's who tells us he's an incredibly skilled marksman and pilot and always has been... somehow. Rey is a scavenger who has been pretty much on her own for years. We actually see her scavenging parts and fighting people rather than just being told about it. Early on, we are told that she has piloted ships(but never left the planet), this is explained by saying she works for Unkar, which we do see. She pilots the Millenium Falcon, crashing it almost immediately before barely escaping from two Tie-Fighters. She knows more about the Millenium Falcon than Han, but this is because the ship has been modified by Unkar. She... okay, so I've seen it claimed that she has perfect aim with a blaster. She forgets to unlock the safety, and then shoots two stormtroopers, missing a few shots. So.... I really don't know what's up with that claim. But, moving on, she wins a lightsaber duel again Kylo Ren. At this point, we know Kylo is only in training to be a Sith, but despite this, we see he has incredible power over the force. However, we've also seen that even without training, Rey's power with the force is at least a match against his, even when he's at his best. He is not at his best when he fights her, he's been hit with Chewie's bowcaster, a weapon that we've been shown over and over again is incredibly powerful. Not only that, but he took a few hits when fighting Finn. Rey mostly runs away from him until using the force to defeat him. We know that she defeats him this time because his control over the force is disrupted by his injury(as seen by him beating his wound throughout the fight). This.... The Kylo Ren fight... There's nothing wrong with it. It calls back on several moments that have been established through visual storytelling and allows the audience to make connections to these moments in order to understand why the fight happens the way it does. It actually uses visual storytelling and puts its faith in the audience to follow along. Either that faith was massively misplaced or certain people are being willfully ignorant about this scene. Either way, Kylo Ren fight is actually pretty brilliant. Also, the comparison to Darth Vader is... pretty unfair. Vader is presented throughout the original trilogy as being above Luke. Ren is presented narratively as equal to Rey, even if canonically that isn't true. They both have a parental connection to Han, they are linked by connection to Luke/Anakin's lightsaber, they are presented as having more or less equal power over the force in the interrogation scene, and unlike Vader who is presented as the main villain until Palpatine takes a more present role in Return of the Jedi, both Snoke and Hux are present throughout The Force Awakens. So, no duh Luke loses to Vader and Rey beats Ren. Narratively, those are the two outcomes that make sense. But, getting back to my point, what strikes me about Luke/Rey are their pasts and the ways in which exceptional feats are explained. Luke's background as a farmer does not mesh with him having skills in combat and as a pilot. Rey's background as a scavenger and working with Unkar makes sense given her skills in combat and as a pilot. When Luke performs exceptional feats, the explanation usually happens through dialogue, it happens late in the story, and it happens just before he does the thing. When Rey performs exceptional feats, the explanations are both through dialogue and sometimes visual storytelling, they happening fairly early in the story, and there's a fair bit of distance between the explanation and her doing the thing. So, if I had to rank these protagonists in order of the most to least "Mary Sue-y", it'd have to be Anakin, then Luke, then Rey. (also the complaint of Mery Sue for any of them, even Anakin, misses the point of the foundation of Star Wars being an attempt to recreate Campbellian myths but whatever. Taking off the gloves it's pretty obvious the only reason Rey gets struck with the label of Mary Sue and not Luke or Anakin is that she's a woman and either explicitly or implicitly this creates tension in some fans of the series who really just need to get over themselves)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 14:37:57 GMT
I wouldn't even mind the fact that Rey's absurdly good at everything if she was at least likeable, but she's just so god damn boring, we've seen her character 1000 times before and done much better, especially when stacked up to the best of the new trilogy's characters (Finn, Kylo, Poe).
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Post by Zeruis on Jan 15, 2018 16:19:30 GMT
Hoo boy, Lyric. Those are uh, definitely some opinions.
Now I really want to know you think of TLJ.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 17:25:29 GMT
Hoo boy, Lyric. Those are uh, definitely some opinions. Now I really want to know you think of TLJ. I'm really excited to see The Last Jedi because the divide between people who think it's the worst movie of the series and people who think it's the best movie of the series is so sharp that at the very least, it's got to be interesting.
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Post by Rock114 on Jan 15, 2018 18:30:57 GMT
I like Rey, more than most people here, but not as much as Luke. I like the new main trio. But not nearly as much as the originals. Rey's a damn sight better than Anakin was though.
And I am also very eager to see Lyric's thoughts on TLJ.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2018 18:52:08 GMT
I like Rey, more than most people here, but not as much as Luke. I like the new main trio. But not nearly as much as the originals. Rey's a damn sight better than Anakin was though. And I am also very eager to see Lyric's thoughts on TLJ. Well, I'm not certain I like Rey more than Luke, or the new main trio more than the originals yet. As of the first movie, I think Rey is better than Luke, but also I felt Mark Hamill didn't really get into the role until Empire Strikes Back. I like Han in the originals a lot more than Poe in the new trilogy so far, and Finn... well, Finn doesn't really fit as an analog for anyone in the originals really, so, yeah.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 5:52:53 GMT
Saw Rogue One.
I think it's... almost a great movie. I like the characters, I like the action and the visuals and all the stuff that Star Wars is almost always excellent at. It's... well, it's back to awkward pacing a little bit, but it's more of a niggle here than a real problem. It's sort of start and stop between slower character moments and fast-paced action. It's probably the darkest and most emotional Star Wars film, which earns it a lot of points, but the internal tension between trying to do something different and keeping it familiar hamstrings it quite a bit.
I get the feeling that this wanted to be less of a Star Wars film, and more of a war film, and it sometimes exceeds. The rebel ambush in Jedha City is the high mark of that, and I think the battle on the ground of Scarif is pretty good at accomplishing this too, but... then you've got the really big space battles and Darth Vader and a blind ninja and?? It just really hurts the tone of what the movie is trying to accomplish. I'm honestly not bothered by sharp tonal shifts(hell, my favorite TV show is Sense8 which is like 80% tonal whiplash), but this is just... pretty bad, and it hurts the film more than anything else.
It also pulls its punches. It wants to have a cast of sharp edged criminals and killers, but we're always told about their flaws, and never shown. For all the talk of Cassian doing horrible things for the rebellion, from what we see of him, he's basically a paragon of virtue. Same with Jyn. She's a criminal... but we're only ever told her crimes. The only bad thing we ever see the rebellion doing is killing Galen, but there's no consequence for doing this. Jyn doesn't hold a grudge against the Rebellion, she goes straight to the council with her plan. It doesn't pull its punches when it comes to the emotional impact of killing the entire main cast at the end(which actually kind of got to me), but pulling its punches when it comes to the morality of its characters just absolutely kills its ability to say anything really meaningful about war and individual morality against the greater good. Supposedly we're supposed to feel something when we see all of these assassins and spies and people who have committed horrible acts redeem themselves by ensuring the greater good prevails, but we're only told that they did horrible things. This is nothing less than a complete failure of narrative to convey theme.
But, I don't want to be too harsh on Rogue One. Despite being a little rough around the edges, I did genuinely enjoy it, it had great characters, and there is a real emotional heft to the final battle. I just can't in good faith say it's a great movie given how it completely fails on two main fronts of what it was attempting to do.
Updated list:
The Force Awakens(10*) > Empire Strikes Back(9) > Return of the Jedi(8.5) > Rogue One(7.5) > A New Hope(7) > The Phantom Menace(7) > Attack of the Clones(3) > Revenge of the Sith(0)
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