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Post by DomeWing333 on Aug 17, 2014 3:40:55 GMT
What themes carry over from Season 1 to Season 2, what themes are explored from new perspectives, what themes are dropped entirely?
Discuss below.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Aug 17, 2014 3:46:25 GMT
I'll copy the main bits of the Harp/Visam debate below from the shout box:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 3:57:34 GMT
You missed a LOT.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Aug 17, 2014 4:07:44 GMT
It was a multi-step process, Harp. A simple thank you would suffice.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 4:12:10 GMT
Well I mean I never asked for this thread, and you uploaded an incomplete log, which ended in a way that made me look like an idiot.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Aug 17, 2014 4:15:13 GMT
Harp. Literally the only things I cut out were you saying "nope" over and over again.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 4:20:16 GMT
Harp. Literally the only things I cut out were you saying "nope" over and over again. Not at the time I posted the original complaint. You did nothing to signify that you weren't done editing the post
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Post by DomeWing333 on Aug 17, 2014 4:25:29 GMT
You're welcome.
Okay, now to actually bring my opinions into this. Round 1. S1 ended with the Stranger calling you out on all of your monstrous acts. In his eyes, you are a monster, just as you were in the eyes of every person you wronged along the way. But in saving Clem, you can redeem yourself from being a monster. That's what Season 1 was about. Not getting through the apocalypse without being a monster, but redeeming yourself from being the monster that people see you as by doing something great and noble.What about leaving a screaming woman die an extremely painful, horrifying so he had more time to clear out a pharmacy? I would say that that's a pretty monstrous thing to do. And when Lee tries to save David Parker in the woods only to cause him to bleed out and die anyway? Or trying to save Irene only to have her blow her brains out no matter what you do? Season 1 had plenty of instances in which trying to save a person does no good at all.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 4:32:16 GMT
Okay, now to actually bring my opinions into this. Round 1. S1 ended with the Stranger calling you out on all of your monstrous acts. In his eyes, you are a monster, just as you were in the eyes of every person you wronged along the way. But in saving Clem, you can redeem yourself from being a monster. That's what Season 1 was about. Not getting through the apocalypse without being a monster, but redeeming yourself from being the monster that people see you as by doing something great and noble.What about leaving a screaming woman die an extremely painful, horrifying so he had more time to clear out a pharmacy? I would say that that's a pretty monstrous thing to do. And when Lee tries to save David Parker in the woods only to cause him to bleed out and die anyway? Or trying to save Irene only to have her blow her brains out no matter what you do? Season 1 had plenty of instances in which trying to save a person does no good at all. That... Is actually better than what I thought. Nice. Well shit, I forgot about that. David Parker was meant to show us that people turn even if they are not bitten, and nobody wanted to kill a group member for that shit, so they gave Ben something important to say. Irene was meant to show how hopeless some people were, and to give Glenn some conflict with Lee. The theme doesn't have to be present if there are other roles being filled. So long as nothing goes directly against the theme, it's fine.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Aug 17, 2014 4:55:50 GMT
And when Lee tries to save David Parker in the woods only to cause him to bleed out and die anyway? Or trying to save Irene only to have her blow her brains out no matter what you do? Season 1 had plenty of instances in which trying to save a person does no good at all. David Parker was meant to show us that people turn even if they are not bitten, and nobody wanted to kill a group member for that shit, so they gave Ben something important to say. Irene was meant to show how hopeless some people were, and to give Glenn some conflict with Lee. The theme doesn't have to be present if there are other roles being filled. So long as nothing goes directly against the theme, it's fine. Harp, it was your point that the instances in which Clem had an opportunity to do good but her efforts didn't pay off pushed the player into making her into a monster. My point was that these instances also showed in with Lee. So if these instances "go against the theme" for Clem, they also go against the theme for Lee. Sarah's death had a similar role that you ascribed to Irene. It showed how hopeless some people were. But as long as there are good figures there who reinforce for you the idea that saving these hopeless people is the right thing to do (Glenn in S1 and Luke in S2), then the game isn't pushing you into becoming a monster. Not to mention that I don't think Clem leaving Sarah after sincerely and desperately trying to convince her to leave is a monstrous act. Not when her life and the life of another person were in danger. And the game still punishes for this by making you watch Sarah get torn to pieces and screaming your name. Several people also said that Sarah's little "...Clementine?" plea was also heartwrenching and made them instantly regret their decision. Then you come back and see how broken up Rebecca is and spent the whole time at the camp staring at a statue telling you not to forsake the fallen.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 5:09:51 GMT
David Parker was meant to show us that people turn even if they are not bitten, and nobody wanted to kill a group member for that shit, so they gave Ben something important to say. Irene was meant to show how hopeless some people were, and to give Glenn some conflict with Lee. The theme doesn't have to be present if there are other roles being filled. So long as nothing goes directly against the theme, it's fine. Harp, it was your point that the instances in which Clem had an opportunity to do good but her efforts didn't pay off pushed the player into making her into a monster. My point was that these instances also showed in with Lee. So if these instances "go against the theme" for Clem, they also go against the theme for Lee. Sarah's death had a similar role that you ascribed to Irene. It showed how hopeless some people were. But as long as there are good figures there who reinforce for you the idea that saving these hopeless people is the right thing to do (Glenn in S1 and Luke in S2), then the game isn't pushing you into becoming a monster. Not to mention that I don't think Clem leaving Sarah after sincerely and desperately trying to convince her to leave is a monstrous act. Not when her life and the life of another person were in danger. And the game still punishes for this by making you watch Sarah get torn to pieces and screaming your name. Several people also said that Sarah's little "...Clementine?" plea was also heartwrenching and made them instantly regret their decision. Then you come back and see how broken up Rebecca is and spent the whole time at the camp staring at a statue telling you not to forsake the fallen. The difference is that there is a slight benefit to leaving Sarah to die. Jane gets injured the second time she tries to save Sarah, and the first time, she almost gets eaten by walkers. Aside from that, Sarah also is nothing but dead weight if you save her. One option that many people took was telling Mike to save Sarah instead of helping Kenny, or grabbing the water. This takes away from vital survival needs, such as someone who knows how to deliver the soon to be delivered baby, or water. In other words, yes, it is trying to push you into that mind set. Well that falls perfectly in line with Jane's speech. The theme of Jane's speech is that, although it may be hard, you should leave people who doubt themselves. The game does nothing to convince you that you should save Sarah, although in Season 1, you were encouraged to save Ben by Clementine, and Clementine's reaction to you not saving Ben. As for it being a monstrous act, it wouldn't be monstrous if Clem left Sarah after walkers entered the room. If Sarah wasn't coming by then, then Clem had perfect reason to leave Sarah. Plus, Clem/Jane would have perfect time to leave, considering the slow speed of the walkers.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Aug 17, 2014 5:59:32 GMT
Rebecca is glad if you save Sarah. That's a plus. Yes, saving Sarah takes away from your survival needs. So does putting the woman in the streets out of her misery (less time to gather supplies). So does taking Lily with you instead of leaving her on the side of the road (she steals the RV--this one's actually the best example I can think of in the whole series of mercy screwing you over). So does not taking stuff from the station wagon (Clem doesn't get a sweater and presumably doesn't get any of the supplies in there). Weighing morality with pragmatism has always been a staple of the Walking Dead.
If you wait until the walkers enter the room, you get a Game Over. That's the fact of it. And why are you treating Jane's speech as end all be all of the message the game is trying to get across. Jane is shown to be a very broken, lonely person. She hates herself for being as ruthless as she is. Just listen at her:
You're supposed to be impressed with Jane for her prowess as a survivor but also realize what a miserable person she is. She can't bring herself to get attached to people because she's such an emotional coward that she can't stand to stay and watch them die. She shows you how desolate the life of a "true survivor" is.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 6:13:56 GMT
Rebecca is glad if you save Sarah. That's a plus. Yes, saving Sarah takes away from your survival needs. So does putting the woman in the streets out of her misery (less time to gather supplies). So does taking Lily with you instead of leaving her on the side of the road (she steals the RV--this one's actually the best example I can think of in the whole series of mercy screwing you over). So does not taking stuff from the station wagon (Clem doesn't get a sweater and presumably doesn't get any of the supplies in there). Weighing morality with pragmatism has always been a staple of the Walking Dead. If you wait until the walkers enter the room, you get a Game Over. That's the fact of it. And why are you treating Jane's speech as end all be all of the message the game is trying to get across. Jane is shown to be a very broken, lonely person. She hates herself for being as ruthless as she is. Just listen at her: You're supposed to be impressed with Jane for her prowess as a survivor but also realize what a miserable person she is. She can't bring herself to get attached to people because she's such an emotional coward that she can't stand to stay and watch them die. She shows you how desolate the life of a "true survivor" is. Not really. Rebecca has never really been an indicator of what we should and shouldn't believe, like Clementine was in season 1. Kenny is glad if you save Ben, Christa tries to defend the guy, and Omid feels bad for him, but none of these are really pluses because the game never pushes you to care what these people think, like they do with Clem. Taking Lilly really doesn't do much, because by the time she steals the RV, Kenny (and by extension, you) is already planning on leaving it behind. Clem not getting the sweater has really nothing to do, because it further contributes to the idea that you don't need to be a monster to survive. While redemption is a far larger theme, the idea that you can be moral still exists. The only thing you came up with that directly means that being pragmatic benefits you is leaving the girl in the road. Still, that's one example. I treat that speech as the be all end all of the theme because it really is. The game does its best to paint Jane as a smart, likable, good person (even if she fucking isn't) who knows what's up. That is the perfect person to deliver the theme. Plus, holy fuck, did you not notice how fucking similar Jane's story was to what happened to Sarah? And how she was right that you couldn't save Sarah forever? As for waiting for the walkers to come in, if you choose to save Sarah, you begin to leave as soon as the walkers come in. Sarah, you, and Jane. That's three people where only two would be, if you left her after the walkers come in. I really never saw Jane as miserable. She was sad after having to do something distasteful, but she seemed fine when she was talking about leaving her sister to fucking die horribly.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Aug 17, 2014 6:32:36 GMT
While Lilly taking the RV doesn't have any practical effect in terms of the story, the entire sequence just makes you feel completely screwed over for doing the nice thing. It tells you that you shouldn't give people like Lilly a second chance because she'll end up stabbing you in the back again. If you leave her on the side of the road, everybody you talk to agrees that that was the right thing to do. Even goddamn Katjaa.
Jane didn't seem "fine" talking about her sister. The game makes it pretty clear that she doesn't like talking about it (I believe Clem actually says something along those lines). She said that she never even looked back at her sister because she couldn't face what she had done. She talked about how she hated herself for doing what she did for a very long time. (Tangent: Jane actually didn't do anything wrong. As she described it, there was literally nothing she could have done to get her sister to the other rooftop.) And she's clearly still being haunted by those memories because of how she reacted towards Sarah. In the newest Playing Dead her voice actress even talked about how she was a broken person. And yeah, she was right about not being able to save Sarah but I'm willing to bet anything that she's wrong about the baby.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2014 6:48:06 GMT
While Lilly taking the RV doesn't have any practical effect in terms of the story, the entire sequence just makes you feel completely screwed over for doing the nice thing. It tells you that you shouldn't give people like Lilly a second chance because she'll end up stabbing you in the back again. If you leave her on the side of the road, everybody you talk to agrees that that was the right thing to do. Even goddamn Katjaa. Jane didn't seem "fine" talking about her sister. The game makes it pretty clear that she doesn't like talking about it (I believe Clem actually says something along those lines). She said that she never even looked back at her sister because she couldn't face what she had done. She talked about how she hated herself for doing what she did for a very long time. (Tangent: Jane actually didn't do anything wrong. As she described it, there was literally nothing she could have done to get her sister to the other rooftop.) And she's clearly still being haunted by those memories because of how she reacted towards Sarah. In the newest Playing Dead her voice actress even talked about how she was a broken person. And yeah, she was right about not being able to save Sarah but I'm willing to bet anything that she's wrong about the baby. Not really. I (and all of the playthroughs I watched on youtube) said when Lilly stole the RV, "Alright, so time to get this back to the pad." Hardly phased by it. It did not make me (or the let's players I watched) feel as though I fucked up. She seems to regret saving her for so long moreso than letting her die. She seemed decent while talking about it. At least to me. She talked about how she hated herself, but then she talked about how she realized that she was dragging her sister through hell or whatever. (Tangent: She could have done something. She could have tried to encourage her sister to jump, at the very least. Instead, she said, fuck it, you're gonna die.) No, she seemed pretty quick to say Sarah's gone. Regardless, she seemed very intact to me. Just a little sad. Not broken. Kenny is broken. Jane is sad. And for the baby, Jane is so gonna be right.
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