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Post by Carmen on Jul 25, 2014 8:32:39 GMT
No more than the Ben decision in Episode 4 encouraged you to embrace Crawford's philosophy. They just left the choice there. It's up to the player as to whether or not they would take it.Actually, I think that's precisely why she was spared. You don't kill or exile your only doctor's daughter. If he had done so, you think Carlos would have done anything else with the rest of his life than get revenge?Isn't this pretty much the crux of Clem's story? She was normal girl who found strength within herself to struggle and continue onward despite an endless barrage of pain and misfortune. Sarah serves as a foil to that. A person who doesn't have the capacity to find strength within herself. I called her a liability. I never said she needed to be tossed aside. The old and feebled, the young and helpless, the injured and weak. These people are undeniably liabilities to any group in a survival situation. The smart, pragmatic, survival-minded thing to do would be to abandon them. But that's not what humanity does. We shelter our weak. We defend them. We prioritize their safety above others and our own. Even in the most dire of circumstances, even when things seem hopeless, even when death is imminent, we don't forsake our fallen. 1. While Ben's choice offered the opportunity, it didn't encourage it. Crawford's Survival of the Fittest outlook explicitly brings about its downfall with Anna Correa. Here? Sarah dies to highlight Jane's philosophy, which hilariously enough, is exactly the same. Ben dies halfway through episode 5 yes, but saving him doesn't feel like a waste. He has presence in the story and even learns to stand up for himself to Kenny and offer insight into his life and what he struggles with. Sarah gets nothing but to be a background model until she dies, while Jane nods sadly and goes "Yep, see, needed to be put out of her misery like Jaime. This is why I only look out for myself bye." 2. Carver is out of his mind. Sarah is clearly terrified of him which, lmao, leads to a gross characterization error as she idly talks to Clementine while he's speaking. And as we see, there's only so much he can take. He might have gone easier on her but no way, sorry, I don't believe he would have let her get away with the outrageous levels of helplessness Telltale insists she has. 3. No, because Clementine was immediately shown to be more competent and capable than any young girl her age. This is explicitly touched on by every single character. Sarah is immediately seen as soft and fragile, the type you think won't last a second on her own. But she outran the horde by herself, right up until she froze in the trailer. She's able to sneak past Carver undetected in episode 2. She has strength, even if she didn't realize it, but it's all immediately forgotten even by the narrative itself. She is a foil to Clementine, you're right, but that shouldn't be the extent of her character. And it is. 4. You didn't say she needed to be tossed aside, but talking about how long Clementine will carry this heavy burden like she's a piece of meat or something is pretty damn dehumanizing. And again, you are probably right on the money as far as what Telltale wants you to get from it. But that doesn't erase the fact that its implications are awful, and that it's incredibly tasteless to imply people who suffer mentally are just there to be protected, and that they have no capacity to survive. We're not just talking about video games here; this kind of shit has real world connotations and stems from very real stigmas. And it was Telltale's conscious decision to continue that.
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Post by IDEK on Jul 25, 2014 9:03:23 GMT
No more than the Ben decision in Episode 4 encouraged you to embrace Crawford's philosophy. They just left the choice there. It's up to the player as to whether or not they would take it.Actually, I think that's precisely why she was spared. You don't kill or exile your only doctor's daughter. If he had done so, you think Carlos would have done anything else with the rest of his life than get revenge?Isn't this pretty much the crux of Clem's story? She was normal girl who found strength within herself to struggle and continue onward despite an endless barrage of pain and misfortune. Sarah serves as a foil to that. A person who doesn't have the capacity to find strength within herself. I called her a liability. I never said she needed to be tossed aside. The old and feebled, the young and helpless, the injured and weak. These people are undeniably liabilities to any group in a survival situation. The smart, pragmatic, survival-minded thing to do would be to abandon them. But that's not what humanity does. We shelter our weak. We defend them. We prioritize their safety above others and our own. Even in the most dire of circumstances, even when things seem hopeless, even when death is imminent, we don't forsake our fallen. 1. While Ben's choice offered the opportunity, it didn't encourage it. Crawford's Survival of the Fittest outlook explicitly brings about its downfall with Anna Correa. Here? Sarah dies to highlight Jane's philosophy, which hilariously enough, is exactly the same. Ben dies halfway through episode 5 yes, but saving him doesn't feel like a waste. He has presence in the story and even learns to stand up for himself to Kenny and offer insight into his life and what he struggles with. Sarah gets nothing but to be a background model until she dies, while Jane nods sadly and goes "Yep, see, needed to be put out of her misery like Jaime. This is why I only look out for myself bye." 2. Carver is out of his mind. Sarah is clearly terrified of him which, lmao, leads to a gross characterization error as she idly talks to Clementine while he's speaking. And as we see, there's only so much he can take. He might have gone easier on her but no way, sorry, I don't believe he would have let her get away with the outrageous levels of helplessness Telltale insists she has. 3. No, because Clementine was immediately shown to be more competent and capable than any young girl her age. This is explicitly touched on by every single character. Sarah is immediately seen as soft and fragile, the type you think won't last a second on her own. But she outran the horde by herself, right up until she froze in the trailer. She's able to sneak past Carver undetected in episode 2. She has strength, even if she didn't realize it, but it's all immediately forgotten even by the narrative itself. She is a foil to Clementine, you're right, but that shouldn't be the extent of her character. And it is. 4. You didn't say she needed to be tossed aside, but talking about how long Clementine will carry this heavy burden like she's a piece of meat or something is pretty damn dehumanizing. And again, you are probably right on the money as far as what Telltale wants you to get from it. But that doesn't erase the fact that its implications are awful, and that it's incredibly tasteless to imply people who suffer mentally are just there to be protected, and that they have no capacity to survive. We're not just talking about video games here; this kind of shit has real world connotations and stems from very real stigmas. And it was Telltale's conscious decision to continue that. I AGREE WITH THIS! Sarah managed to run her way out of a horde. so yeah; liability y'know what I just noticed? Every one of Sarah's deaths are caused by her having a panic attack.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 25, 2014 9:28:29 GMT
Here, there's an actual statue of one person carrying another over his shoulders, dedicated to the idea that you should never abandon those who've fallen, even in times of war. And then Sarah falls. And you have the choice of whether or not to abandon her. It seemed pretty cut-and-dried to me which side the game wanted you to fall on.
Agree to disagree on the second point. I don't see any other reason Carver would keep someone with even a fraction of Sarah's helplessness around. She hasn't shown any skill or capacity to do anything. She was inside the compound before. Maybe Carver is much less harsh to those in there than in the yard.
Sarah sneaking past Carver is a good point. I hadn't considered that as demonstration of strength, but I suppose you are right. I expected her to scream and freak out but she didn't. So she did have some strength. I don't think it was enough to pull her back from Carlos's sudden and brutal death though. That's a life-shattering event. I don't think the minimal amount of strength she had in her would have survived that trauma.I apologize if I was being offensive. That wasn't my intention. The insistence on carrying is meant to be allude to the statue featured in the episode, not a suggestion that Sarah is an object. She isn't. Not any more than an enfeebled grandmother or terminally ill patient.
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Post by IDEK on Jul 25, 2014 9:40:45 GMT
btw; i just want to point this out.
Sarah is a character who's only reason of being a liability is her anxiety disorder/aspergers/whatever she has as it's so hard to tell without finding a sarah masterpost or doing research on each and every thing.
I can guarantee that if Luke didn't follow her into the mobile home, she wouldn't have started screaming and the walkers wouldn't have got her attention; and even though it would've taken a while. she would've calmed down . even though she'd be stuck in there. but her thoughts would go back to her father and she'd end up in tears again.
her first death was indirectly caused by Luke and Clem and Jane and whoever the hell shot Carlos, and directly caused by her mental problems.
her second one was simply just her being unfortunate and at the wrong place at the wrong time. but she started to have a panic attack again, this led to her not being able to do anything and getting eaten.
so basically; her disorder indirectly killed her this time, and Luke and Clem were still indirectly doing it; but it was more apparent.
so basically; she would've been better off if Luke couldn't find her. at least for a hour.
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Post by Carmen on Jul 25, 2014 9:44:54 GMT
I really do wish I could agree with you, because that would be a beautiful allusion. But the fact that Sarah dies either way in almost the exact same fashion while Jane is reinforced that she should only look out for herself cheapens the effect to me, and it just makes it seem more like cruel irony.
You're right, her father's death is an intensely traumatizing experience and I don't blame Sarah in the slightest for shutting down afterward. But I am angry at the dropped arcs and foreshadowing ending up coming to nothing. I would take Sarah fucking shooting herself in the head if it meant that gun scene would have actually meant something.
Though her voice actress did an excellent job on her death scenes, I'll give them that much.
And don't worry about it, things get lost in translation over text. I am admittedly sensitive to things like that.
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Post by IDEK on Jul 25, 2014 9:48:59 GMT
i have no idea if your talking to dome or me.
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Post by Carmen on Jul 25, 2014 9:50:26 GMT
Dome yes I'm on mobile so it makes quoting a pain
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 9:52:27 GMT
Dome yes I'm on mobile so it makes quoting a pain Go to the bottom of the page, and hit desktop. It makes mobile so much more bearable.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 15:09:52 GMT
The true fact behind Sarah and Nicks' deaths was so that there would be no loose ends in Episode 5.
Episode 5 is going to play out the same for everyone and nobody's previous choices will matter at all because, in some cases, they've all been prematurely cut off.
All I wanted was for Sarah to do one thing. Pick up a gun, shoot a walker, then drop it in fright or something.
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jul 25, 2014 15:17:06 GMT
I could get over Nick's death. Now Sarah. Carlos died for Sarah's character development, plain and simple. She wasn't developed at all during the whole episode. Sarah could've died in the beginning of E4 and show no difference in her character if she survived from the trailer park. If that isn't shoehorning two characters out of the narrative, I don't know what is. Not sad or anything, but I'm kinda angry. Well, she did change after his death. But change doesn't always mean progress [insert mandatory "thanks, Obama" joke here]. With Carlos out of the picture, Sarah regressed into a near-infantile state and stayed that way despite any attempts by Clem to reach her. So, really, Carlos died to show that Sarah's character couldn't develop. Not on her own and not in that world. Agreed, it clearly shows that some people just never change, no matter what, I believe the show touched on that somewhat, but it was in more focus here.
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jul 25, 2014 15:19:50 GMT
No more than the Ben decision in Episode 4 encouraged you to embrace Crawford's philosophy. They just left the choice there. It's up to the player as to whether or not they would take it.Actually, I think that's precisely why she was spared. You don't kill or exile your only doctor's daughter. If he had done so, you think Carlos would have done anything else with the rest of his life than get revenge?Isn't this pretty much the crux of Clem's story? She was normal girl who found strength within herself to struggle and continue onward despite an endless barrage of pain and misfortune. Sarah serves as a foil to that. A person who doesn't have the capacity to find strength within herself. I called her a liability. I never said she needed to be tossed aside. The old and feebled, the young and helpless, the injured and weak. These people are undeniably liabilities to any group in a survival situation. The smart, pragmatic, survival-minded thing to do would be to abandon them. But that's not what humanity does. We shelter our weak. We defend them. We prioritize their safety above others and our own. Even in the most dire of circumstances, even when things seem hopeless, even when death is imminent, we don't forsake our fallen. All true, bonus for referencing that memorial statue.
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jul 25, 2014 15:23:21 GMT
I really do wish I could agree with you, because that would be a beautiful allusion. But the fact that Sarah dies either way in almost the exact same fashion while Jane is reinforced that she should only look out for herself cheapens the effect to me, and it just makes it seem more like cruel irony. You're right, her father's death is an intensely traumatizing experience and I don't blame Sarah in the slightest for shutting down afterward. But I am angry at the dropped arcs and foreshadowing ending up coming to nothing. I would take Sarah fucking shooting herself in the head if it meant that gun scene would have actually meant something. Though her voice actress did an excellent job on her death scenes, I'll give them that much. And don't worry about it, things get lost in translation over text. I am admittedly sensitive to things like that. No kidding on the voice actress, if anything I would have expecting them to maybe reuse the non canon Clem death scream, but no they had to make an new, even worse one, bravo there I suppose.
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Post by dojo32161 on Oct 22, 2014 0:20:25 GMT
As much as I really hate Nick's death, I'm glad that they at least put a bit of effort into it. They put in a tiny detail that I enjoyed, but it doesn't make the death any better, his death just feels like there's something missing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 0:27:10 GMT
As much as I really hate Nick's death, I'm glad that they at least put a bit of effort into it. They put in a tiny detail that I enjoyed, but it doesn't make the death any better, his death just feels like there's something missing. You call some blood spraying on his mouth a bit of effort? ok
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Post by dojo32161 on Oct 22, 2014 0:35:48 GMT
As much as I really hate Nick's death, I'm glad that they at least put a bit of effort into it. They put in a tiny detail that I enjoyed, but it doesn't make the death any better, his death just feels like there's something missing. You call some blood spraying on his mouth a bit of effort? ok It's an incredibly small effort, but it's something at least. His death is still incredibly poor and this doesn't change it, but I'm glad that they at least put in a small detail (I love small details).
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