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Post by thatstoomuchfestivity on Jul 18, 2014 9:08:35 GMT
I'm a bit skeptical about Mike. I mean, he's clearly a great guy, but that's not what I mean. I mean it seems like Telltale are trying to create a Lee v2.0, and I don't want them to just rehash characters like that. You're fucking kidding, right? THEY ALREADY HAVE. LOOK AT THE MAN IN YOUR GODDAMN PROFILE PICTURE AND TELL ME HOW HE ISN'T LEE.He's an asshat who doesn't take into consideration the input of anyone besides himself?
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Post by thatstoomuchfestivity on Jul 18, 2014 9:18:24 GMT
He's an asshat who doesn't take into consideration the input of anyone besides himself? And Lee can be the same goddamn way. Mike, by the way, is FAR worse in that regard. Even Reggie said he can be a douchebag sometimes. Mike is cool, and badass. Lee was badass, and kind. Kenny used to be obtuse, and judgmental. Now he's badass and judgmental (not a good thing, by the way). He formed opinions on every single person before he spoke to them in a situation that wasn't guns pointed at each other. Lee can be that way if you play him that way. And therein lies the difference, because you can't control a thing Kenny does with his current mindset. As for Mike, he strikes me as one who doesn't put up with bullshit, but that doesn't necessarily mean he makes rash snap judgments. There are more layers to him than just: REBEL! FIGHT! KILL!
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 18, 2014 9:22:36 GMT
I don't really see your point, Harp. They've made Kenny into Lee because Lee can act like Kenny? Lee could have acted like Kenny in Season 1. That doesn't mean they made Kenny like Lee. That means YOU made Lee like Kenny.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 18, 2014 9:26:22 GMT
I don't really see your point, Harp. They've made Kenny into Lee because Lee can act like Kenny? Lee could have acted like Kenny in Season 1. That doesn't mean they made Kenny like Lee. That means YOU made Lee like Kenny. Why not read my post, Dome? Because I posted it immediately after you posted it. Moreover, my point still applies. Kenny's characterization in Season 2 is no different than his characterization in Season 1. The only thing that changed is his role. But what we're talking about is characterization, not role.
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Post by thatstoomuchfestivity on Jul 18, 2014 9:31:36 GMT
Lee can be that way if you play him that way. And therein lies the difference, because you can't control a thing Kenny does with his current mindset. As for Mike, he strikes me as one who doesn't put up with bullshit, but that doesn't necessarily mean he makes rash snap judgments. There are more layers to him than just: REBEL! FIGHT! KILL! You... Also... Can't control Mike... Please, tell me, who's more of the father figure and current resident badass? Because that was the core of Lee's character. The man who got through a shoulder to shoulder pack of zombies without smell camouflage? The man who stealthed around and killed guards? The man who spends the most time with Clementine by a landslide? The man who had a heartfelt reunion with the little girl, and then called her the name of his dead son? Or the man who grabbed one or two zombies in the trailer, and was an asshole to Clem in his introduction, AND never apologized for it? I was talking about the difference in character makeup, and then you completely steered the conversation towards guardianship. Which is not to say they aren't both guardians in their own right, but you asked for a difference, and I provided it. They're quite obviously not cut from the same cloth, and it isn't hard to see.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 18, 2014 9:33:10 GMT
What the hell are you talking about? Of course Lee can be abrasive but not bad. It all depends on what you have him do and say. Have you only seen all-good or all-bad playthroughs or something? 'Cause you're really reaching here, Harp.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 18, 2014 9:38:06 GMT
What the hell are you talking about? Of course Lee can be abrasive but not bad. It all depends on what you have him do and say. Have you only seen all-good or all-bad playthroughs or something? 'Cause you're really reaching here, Harp. Uh. No. I'm talking about from line to line. I'm not talking about him overall. Mike has a subtlety, a 7 on the happy/angry scale, where Lee has 1, 2, 3, 5, 10. lol I think you need to play the game again, Harp. They are plenty of times Lee has been angry and stern but not roaring in anger.
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Post by thatstoomuchfestivity on Jul 18, 2014 9:39:30 GMT
I was talking about the difference in character makeup, and then you completely steered the conversation towards guardianship. Which is not to say they aren't both guardians in their own right, but you asked for a difference, and I provided it. They're quite obviously not cut from the same cloth, and it isn't hard to see. Uh... Every option Lee has is something that every Lee would say. Telltale said in Playing Dead that they worked really hard to achieve that. Again, you'd be steering the conversation in another direction. For a near match to Kenny (which still doesn't even register in the neighborhood), you'd be giving the example of an all-bad playthrough, where the player is doing nothing but being belligerent with others for no discernible reason. I guarantee you 90+% of people didn't utilize their canon playthrough in that manner.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 18, 2014 9:45:38 GMT
lol I think you need to play the game again, Harp. They are plenty of times Lee has been angry and stern but not roaring in anger. Stern is different. I'm really not sure how to explain this. Lee never gets to some of the points that Mike showed in that episode. What? The only thing Mike demonstrates in that episode that Lee hasn't demonstrated is that he's grumpy when he's sleepy. We've never seen Lee sleepy, but we've certainly seen him stressed. And some of the dialogue options do allow him to get short with people when he's stressed. That said, I don't even agree with the whole "Mike is Lee 2.0" thing. I just disagree with your "Kenny is Lee 2.0" thing.
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Post by thatstoomuchfestivity on Jul 18, 2014 9:46:32 GMT
Again, you'd be steering the conversation in another direction. For a near match to Kenny (which still doesn't even register in the neighborhood), you'd be giving the example of an all-bad playthrough, where the player is doing nothing but being belligerent with others for no discernible reason. I guarantee you 90+% of people didn't utilize their canon playthrough in that manner. Nope. That's not true. Even if it was, that's still something Lee would do. Kenny is Lee on a bad playthrough, sure, whatever, but he's still Lee. So if 3/4 the responses constitute a benevolent/neutral behavior, then the one abrasive choice determines who Lee is? Even Lee's bad playthrough doesn't come close to Kenny, which is why he'll never be Lee 2.0.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 18, 2014 9:52:28 GMT
What? The only thing Mike demonstrates in that episode that Lee hasn't demonstrated is that he's grumpy when he's sleepy. We've never seen Lee sleepy, but we've certainly seen him stressed. And some of the dialogue options do all him to get short with people when he's stressed. That said, I don't even agree with the whole "Mike is Lee 2.0" thing. I just disagree with your "Kenny is Lee 2.0" thing. I could argue that, but this argument bores me. The one that interests me is Kenny. In what way is Kenny not being displayed as a forgiving father figure to Clementine, and what choices would Lee never make that Kenny does? Well for one, he broke out his handcuffs and told Clementine to "do what she can" when he launches an unarmed attack from the back of a truck against several people armed with assault rifles. I can't see any incarnation of Lee doing that.
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Post by thatstoomuchfestivity on Jul 18, 2014 9:57:40 GMT
So if 3/4 the responses constitute a benevolent/neutral behavior, then the one abrasive choice determines who Lee is? Even Lee's bad playthrough doesn't come close to Kenny, which is why he'll never be Lee 2.0. I'm not talking about season 1 Kenny, by the way. Season 2 Kenny is entirely different. What things has Kenny done in season 2 that Lee would not? Make any of the rash decisions that Kenny has. His unwillingness to cooperate with Luke/Nick. His insistence on putting the entire group in danger by attempting to snipe the Carver group. The rant about going Rambo in the truck. His insistence that Clem make decisions/perform tasks that carried considerable risk. The quick dismissal of Reggie. His distrust of everyone aside from Clem. Him bashing Carver's head in that manner, and allowing Clem to see it. Lee would be democratic/protective. Kenny could be compared to a dictator.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 18, 2014 10:05:24 GMT
Well not semantics this time (semantics has to do with word-meaning). This is just an intractable difference in opinion.
Also, what dfh15 said.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 18, 2014 10:17:40 GMT
Harp, with your "If Lee were in X character's position, I could imagine the choice that the character makes being a choice that Lee has the option of making" line of argument, you could say that Telltale made just about every character like Lee.
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Post by thatstoomuchfestivity on Jul 18, 2014 10:22:33 GMT
Make any of the rash decisions that Kenny has. The rant about going Rambo in the truck. His insistence that Clem make decisions/perform tasks that carried considerable risk. The quick dismissal of Reggie. His distrust of everyone aside from Clem. Him bashing Carver's head in that manner, and allowing Clem to see it. Lee would be democratic. Kenny would be a dictator. I still think that if Lee got some support, he would totally go rambo. Lee had a choice to not trust most people. The only people he didn't have a choice to distrust were morally unambiguous characters. Katjaa, Carley, Doug, Omid, and Mark. I think that covers it. Lee never met anyone like Reggie. He could be someone who likes Reggie, he could be somebody who finds him infuriating, such as myself, and Kenny. If Lee got his face smashed in, he may have a Bigby-esque choice, with kill, fucking destroy, or leave. I could see that. The democratic thing again falls into choice, and obscurity. Lee submitted to a vote twice, and both were because EVERYONE disagreed with his choice. If NOBODY wanted to do Kenny's breakout, then nobody would've done Kenny's breakout, and Kenny would've waited. Just like he waited after he fixed the RV. He didn't want to be without support. The only time Kenny acts against unanimous votes was when he, his wife, and his son were all on the line, directly or indirectly. Lee, too, would act against any unanimous vote if Clementine were on the line. In episode 2, Lee left for the dairy, even if he voted not to go, because not a single person other than Lee didn't want to go. The only other time a vote was called, Lee, no matter whether he was in the majority or minority, he did whatever the fuck he wanted, because he was supported by one person for sure. You're forgetting the Ben Paul decision. Lee's vote, and subsequently the whole group's, was overturned because Clementine didn't want to leave him behind. I don't see one moment where season 2 Kenny is willing to acquiesce so completely to anyone, not even Clem. Getting more personal: I know you and many others hate Kenny, and that polarizing reputation is why he'll never be Lee 2.0. Telltale may have tried, but it's the player feedback that matters in the end.
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