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Post by o0HeaDShoT0o on Jul 11, 2014 18:47:27 GMT
There is one book of Fable left for me to unlock. "Winter Wolf". The only thing is, I have no idea how to unlock it. Don't hit Mary while her back is turned. She'll ask you if your mother ever taught you manners or was she just fucking every breeze that came through town, then you'll unlock it. Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 18:47:31 GMT
THE HORROR anyways did anyone else think it was funny if Bigby tries to pull the ribbon off (of course vivian stops him) when she is about to take the ribbon off herself, bigbys like 'WTF R U DOIN' Your picture sums up my reaction to this thread pretty well.
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Post by Michael7123 on Jul 11, 2014 21:04:16 GMT
Wait, who deleted all the stuff about bloody Mary? I was in the middle of reading that!
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Post by IDEK on Jul 11, 2014 21:04:47 GMT
it's a thread of it's own.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 21:04:57 GMT
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Post by Teacakes on Jul 11, 2014 21:05:54 GMT
The Perverts Among Us.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 11, 2014 21:06:03 GMT
Actually, Vivian was never verbally threatened, but any other action he could've taken would have put Vivian in extreme risk, or directly harmed her. Let's look at his options. A) Kill the girls. This is a horrible deed, but it saves Vivian. B) Free the girls. To do this, he actually KILLS Vivian. Takes a stronger man than the norm to do this one. C) Refuse to kill the girls. Heh. No. A brutal man like the Crooked Man wouldn't let such a weak link dangle. One of three things happens at this point. Crooked Man kills Georgie. Crooked Man twists Georgie's arm, threatens Vivian, and makes Georgie kill the girls. After that one, both Georgie and Vivian could still die. The third possibility is that Crooked Man fires him. Looking at the odds, that's still a 2/3 chance of deal breaking things happening. D) Never tell the Crooked Man in the first place of the escape. This would work, if Georgie didn't think he could smooth it over with the Crooked Man. But he did. He thought that the Crooked Man would listen. That was his only fault. As for not feeling sorry, I understand that too. Do you think Lee's group should feel sorry for stealing the Stranger's things? If not, then you're a hypocrite. Both the group and Georgie did things to get themselves in a situation where they needed to do something bad. They did that something bad. Both them and their loved ones survived because of it. Georgie is on the same level as... I dunno, Lilly. Lilly didn't agree with stealing, but she knew what had to be done. She did her wrong thing, and she accepted it. She accepted that it may not have been the best choice, and she accepted that there were other things she could've done. However, she knew there was no point in dwelling on it. C and D are the options I would expect from a caring human being (or Fable in this case). He could have asked for more magic to keep them in line. He could have disciplined them in other ways. He could have done anything else that wasn't murdering two women. Do I think Lee's group should feel sorry for stealing the Stranger's things? Not initially, but after finding out the misery their actions caused him, yes, they should feel sorry. Who wouldn't? But regardless, taking things out of an abandoned care is NOT on the same level as beheading two women. It's just not. If the Stranger's entire family had been standing there, saying "please don't take that food, we need it to survive" then it might be similar. And the thing that pisses me off with Georgie is that he doesn't see what he did as wrong. Throughout the whole ordeal, not once did he express a single sentiment of guilt or sadness or empathy towards his victims. Vivian, despite not carrying out the act herself, did feel guilty for her role. She struggled with what she did. Georgie didn't. That's why I don't forgive him.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 21:07:50 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 21:46:17 GMT
Actually, Vivian was never verbally threatened, but any other action he could've taken would have put Vivian in extreme risk, or directly harmed her. Let's look at his options. A) Kill the girls. This is a horrible deed, but it saves Vivian. B) Free the girls. To do this, he actually KILLS Vivian. Takes a stronger man than the norm to do this one. C) Refuse to kill the girls. Heh. No. A brutal man like the Crooked Man wouldn't let such a weak link dangle. One of three things happens at this point. Crooked Man kills Georgie. Crooked Man twists Georgie's arm, threatens Vivian, and makes Georgie kill the girls. After that one, both Georgie and Vivian could still die. The third possibility is that Crooked Man fires him. Looking at the odds, that's still a 2/3 chance of deal breaking things happening. D) Never tell the Crooked Man in the first place of the escape. This would work, if Georgie didn't think he could smooth it over with the Crooked Man. But he did. He thought that the Crooked Man would listen. That was his only fault. As for not feeling sorry, I understand that too. Do you think Lee's group should feel sorry for stealing the Stranger's things? If not, then you're a hypocrite. Both the group and Georgie did things to get themselves in a situation where they needed to do something bad. They did that something bad. Both them and their loved ones survived because of it. Georgie is on the same level as... I dunno, Lilly. Lilly didn't agree with stealing, but she knew what had to be done. She did her wrong thing, and she accepted it. She accepted that it may not have been the best choice, and she accepted that there were other things she could've done. However, she knew there was no point in dwelling on it. C and D are the options I would expect from a caring human being (or Fable in this case). He could have asked for more magic to keep them in line. He could have disciplined them in other ways. He could have done anything else that wasn't murdering two women. Do I think Lee's group should feel sorry for stealing the Stranger's things? Not initially, but after finding out the misery their actions caused him, yes, they should feel sorry. Who wouldn't? But regardless, taking things out of an abandoned care is NOT on the same level as beheading two women. It's just not. If the Stranger's entire family had been standing there, saying "please don't take that food, we need it to survive" then it might be similar. And the thing that pisses me off with Georgie is that he doesn't see what he did as wrong. Throughout the whole ordeal, not once did he express a single sentiment of guilt or sadness or empathy towards his victims. Vivian, despite not carrying out the act herself, did feel guilty for her role. She struggled with what she did. Georgie didn't. That's why I don't forgive him. C and D is what you should expect from someone who doesn't care if they live or die, or if the ones they love live or die. Not from "a caring human being." As for asking for more magic, he probably did. We never saw his attempted negotiations with the Crooked Man, so we can never know if he tried to ask for more magic, or if he requested to have them disciplined otherwise. I still don't see a way out other than D, and what led him to not do D is a mixture of loyalty and stupidity. And I don't use stupidity to decide who's good, and who's bad. Some people would feel sorry. But there are people who just accept their bad decisions and move on. I don't think the latter is worse than the former. As for the car, the fucking lights were on THREE MONTHS after the apocalypse. Clearly, someone was taking care of that car. No way in hell was it abandoned. Saying they didn't know they were ruining somebody's life is naive. Hell, they knew they were ruining a child's life. Remember the sweater? No adult would have that, or carry it around. They knew they were fucking up a child's life. Again, Georgie falls into the group of people who accept what they did. It's one way that people deal with bad situations. It doesn't make him a bad person because he chose to accept the deaths of people he killed in order to save his loved one. Here's a situation that is far more similar for you to compare to. Remember Jessie in the TWD comic? She was Rick's short time girlfriend. At one point, the dead broke into Alexandria, and Rick, Carl, Jessie, and her son were walking through the streets, cloaked under walker guts, when suddenly, Jessie's son was grabbed by walkers. Jessie freaked the fuck out, and grabbed her son, along with Carl. Eventually, she was overcome with walkers, too. So what did Rick do? He chopped off her arm. And he never thought about it again. He said something along the lines of it being a bad thing he did, but that he'd do it again. I don't think it's fair to judge people on what they do in forced situations, and how they feel about it afterwards, so long as they're not happy about what they did. He wasn't happy, he just knew he wouldn't want the other way around, so he accepted his decision.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 11, 2014 22:15:20 GMT
C and D are the options I would expect from a caring human being (or Fable in this case). He could have asked for more magic to keep them in line. He could have disciplined them in other ways. He could have done anything else that wasn't murdering two women. Do I think Lee's group should feel sorry for stealing the Stranger's things? Not initially, but after finding out the misery their actions caused him, yes, they should feel sorry. Who wouldn't? But regardless, taking things out of an abandoned care is NOT on the same level as beheading two women. It's just not. If the Stranger's entire family had been standing there, saying "please don't take that food, we need it to survive" then it might be similar. And the thing that pisses me off with Georgie is that he doesn't see what he did as wrong. Throughout the whole ordeal, not once did he express a single sentiment of guilt or sadness or empathy towards his victims. Vivian, despite not carrying out the act herself, did feel guilty for her role. She struggled with what she did. Georgie didn't. That's why I don't forgive him. C and D is what you should expect from someone who doesn't care if they live or die, or if the ones they love live or die. Not from "a caring human being." As for asking for more magic, he probably did. We never saw his attempted negotiations with the Crooked Man, so we can never know if he tried to ask for more magic, or if he requested to have them disciplined otherwise. I still don't see a way out other than D, and what led him to not do D is a mixture of loyalty and stupidity. And I don't use stupidity to decide who's good, and who's bad. Some people would feel sorry. But there are people who just accept their bad decisions and move on. I don't think the latter is worse than the former. As for the car, the fucking lights were on THREE MONTHS after the apocalypse. Clearly, someone was taking care of that car. No way in hell was it abandoned. Saying they didn't know they were ruining somebody's life is naive. Hell, they knew they were ruining a child's life. Remember the sweater? No adult would have that, or carry it around. They knew they were fucking up a child's life. Again, Georgie falls into the group of people who accept what they did. It's one way that people deal with bad situations. It doesn't make him a bad person because he chose to accept the deaths of people he killed in order to save his loved one. Here's a situation that is far more similar for you to compare to. Remember Jessie in the TWD comic? She was Rick's short time girlfriend. At one point, the dead broke into Alexandria, and Rick, Carl, Jessie, and her son were walking through the streets, cloaked under walker guts, when suddenly, Jessie's son was grabbed by walkers. Jessie freaked the fuck out, and grabbed her son, along with Carl. Eventually, she was overcome with walkers, too. So what did Rick do? He chopped off her arm. And he never thought about it again. He said something along the lines of it being a bad thing he did, but that he'd do it again. I don't think it's fair to judge people on what they do in forced situations, and how they feel about it afterwards, so long as they're not happy about what they did. He wasn't happy, he just knew he wouldn't want the other way around, so he accepted his decision. Again, Vivian's life wasn't in danger. Georgie only brought up the ribbon thing as a reason for why he couldn't free Faith and Lilly. The reason he killed him was because he was afraid of what the Crooked Man would do to him. It was a selfish act. One that he should feel horrible about. Yes, there are people who just accept their bad decisions and move on. Those people are assholes. If you do something that hurts, or in this case, kills someone else and don't feel bad about it, you're a sociopath. There was no one around the car and no signs of when or if the owners were coming back. The fact that all the doors were open and the light was on meant that the owners ran off in haste, which suggested that something terrible already happened to them. Leaving a bunch of food and supplies there in bandit-infested woods would have just been wasteful and dumb. In your comics example, the woman was dead/dying anyway and was holding on to Carl's hand out of sheer panic. Rick's decision in that case wasn't even a bad thing to do. It wouldn't have helped anybody if he hadn't done what he did. Sorry to pull Godwin's law on this, but Georgie's excuse of "doing what he was told" and being in a "forced situation" is exactly the defense used during the Nuremberg Trials. It was a bullshit excuse then and it's a bullshit excuse now.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 22:34:35 GMT
C and D is what you should expect from someone who doesn't care if they live or die, or if the ones they love live or die. Not from "a caring human being." As for asking for more magic, he probably did. We never saw his attempted negotiations with the Crooked Man, so we can never know if he tried to ask for more magic, or if he requested to have them disciplined otherwise. I still don't see a way out other than D, and what led him to not do D is a mixture of loyalty and stupidity. And I don't use stupidity to decide who's good, and who's bad. Some people would feel sorry. But there are people who just accept their bad decisions and move on. I don't think the latter is worse than the former. As for the car, the fucking lights were on THREE MONTHS after the apocalypse. Clearly, someone was taking care of that car. No way in hell was it abandoned. Saying they didn't know they were ruining somebody's life is naive. Hell, they knew they were ruining a child's life. Remember the sweater? No adult would have that, or carry it around. They knew they were fucking up a child's life. Again, Georgie falls into the group of people who accept what they did. It's one way that people deal with bad situations. It doesn't make him a bad person because he chose to accept the deaths of people he killed in order to save his loved one. Here's a situation that is far more similar for you to compare to. Remember Jessie in the TWD comic? She was Rick's short time girlfriend. At one point, the dead broke into Alexandria, and Rick, Carl, Jessie, and her son were walking through the streets, cloaked under walker guts, when suddenly, Jessie's son was grabbed by walkers. Jessie freaked the fuck out, and grabbed her son, along with Carl. Eventually, she was overcome with walkers, too. So what did Rick do? He chopped off her arm. And he never thought about it again. He said something along the lines of it being a bad thing he did, but that he'd do it again. I don't think it's fair to judge people on what they do in forced situations, and how they feel about it afterwards, so long as they're not happy about what they did. He wasn't happy, he just knew he wouldn't want the other way around, so he accepted his decision. Again, Vivian's life wasn't in danger. Georgie only brought up the ribbon thing as a reason for why he couldn't free Faith and Lilly. The reason he killed him was because he was afraid of what the Crooked Man would do to him. It was a selfish act. One that he should feel horrible about. Yes, there are people who just accept their bad decisions and move on. Those people are assholes. If you do something that hurts, or in this case, kills someone else and don't feel bad about it, you're a sociopath. There was no one around the car and no signs of when or if the owners were coming back. The fact that all the doors were open and the light was on meant that the owners ran off in haste, which suggested that something terrible already happened to them. Leaving a bunch of food and supplies there in bandit-infested woods would have just been wasteful and dumb. In your comics example, the woman was dead/dying anyway and was holding on to Carl's hand out of sheer panic. Rick's decision in that case wasn't even a bad thing to do. It wouldn't have helped anybody if he hadn't done what he did. Sorry to pull Godwin's law on this, but Georgie's excuse of "doing what he was told" and being in a "forced situation" is exactly the defense used during the Nuremberg Trials. It was a bullshit excuse then and it's a bullshit excuse now. Vivian's live and Georgie's lives were both in danger. He killed the girls in fear. Yes, that's bad. But again, he'd prefer he and his loved ones live, so he just accepts it, and moves on. Some people think that way, and that doesn't make them bad people. In his mind, it was kill the girls, or die with the girls. Accepting your bad decisions isn't bad. Accepting them is just a way that people deal with guilt. Acceptance is the fifth stage of grief. Accepting bad things you've done doesn't make you bad. Not in the slightest. So long as you don't enjoy what you did, and so long as you were not in charge of the decision, you're fine. At least in my eyes. Lilly, our anagram for Georgie, didn't seem to think that nobody was coming back. Remember her noting specifically that they'd be monsters? Yet she never spoke of it again. She let it go and focused on more important things. She did kinda go crazy over that, but for different reasons. Those girls were going to get killed once Crookie made that decision. They may as well have been bitten. Think about all of Crooked Man's goons. One of them would've done it, at least. Georgie was just the one who was asked to. Refusing would've done nothing. Those girls were as dead as Jessie at that point. Yes and no. In Nazi Germany, people were allowed to quit their jobs. In the criminal underbelly, not so much. Let's look at this from the perspectives of a German scientist and a henchman refusing orders. If the scientist quits, he quits. He goes back to his family, and finds another job, with an extraordinary resume. If a criminal refuses his orders, a man like The Crooked Man wouldn't let that slide. Like Georgie said, then he'd be the one being "dealt with." Plus, those girls would die anyways. It's just a waste of Georgie's own life and livelihood to protect those girls to the point of refusing orders. It wouldn't have affected Faith and Lilly if Georgie refused. They would have died regardless.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 11, 2014 23:03:25 GMT
Again, Vivian's life wasn't in danger. Georgie only brought up the ribbon thing as a reason for why he couldn't free Faith and Lilly. The reason he killed him was because he was afraid of what the Crooked Man would do to him. It was a selfish act. One that he should feel horrible about. Yes, there are people who just accept their bad decisions and move on. Those people are assholes. If you do something that hurts, or in this case, kills someone else and don't feel bad about it, you're a sociopath. There was no one around the car and no signs of when or if the owners were coming back. The fact that all the doors were open and the light was on meant that the owners ran off in haste, which suggested that something terrible already happened to them. Leaving a bunch of food and supplies there in bandit-infested woods would have just been wasteful and dumb. In your comics example, the woman was dead/dying anyway and was holding on to Carl's hand out of sheer panic. Rick's decision in that case wasn't even a bad thing to do. It wouldn't have helped anybody if he hadn't done what he did. Sorry to pull Godwin's law on this, but Georgie's excuse of "doing what he was told" and being in a "forced situation" is exactly the defense used during the Nuremberg Trials. It was a bullshit excuse then and it's a bullshit excuse now. Vivian's live and Georgie's lives were both in danger. He killed the girls in fear. Yes, that's bad. But again, he'd prefer he and his loved ones live, so he just accepts it, and moves on. Some people think that way, and that doesn't make them bad people. In his mind, it was kill the girls, or die with the girls. Accepting your bad decisions isn't bad. Accepting them is just a way that people deal with guilt. Acceptance is the fifth stage of grief. Accepting bad things you've done doesn't make you bad. Not in the slightest. So long as you don't enjoy what you did, and so long as you were not in charge of the decision, you're fine. At least in my eyes. Lilly, our anagram for Georgie, didn't seem to think that nobody was coming back. Remember her noting specifically that they'd be monsters? Yet she never spoke of it again. She let it go and focused on more important things. She did kinda go crazy over that, but for different reasons. Those girls were going to get killed once Crookie made that decision. They may as well have been bitten. Think about all of Crooked Man's goons. One of them would've done it, at least. Georgie was just the one who was asked to. Refusing would've done nothing. Those girls were as dead as Jessie at that point. Yes and no. In Nazi Germany, people were allowed to quit their jobs. In the criminal underbelly, not so much. Let's look at this from the perspectives of a German scientist and a henchman refusing orders. If the scientist quits, he quits. He goes back to his family, and finds another job, with an extraordinary resume. If a criminal refuses his orders, a man like The Crooked Man wouldn't let that slide. Like Georgie said, then he'd be the one being "dealt with." Plus, those girls would die anyways. It's just a waste of Georgie's own life and livelihood to protect those girls to the point of refusing orders. It wouldn't have affected Faith and Lilly if Georgie refused. They would have died regardless. We're going to have to agree to disagree on the whole "accepting that bad things you did" thing. To me, it is far worse to be a remorseless killer than a remorseful one. The latter is redeemable, the former is not. Lilly and Clem disagreed on what the situation was. But here's the thing. If while we were deciding what to do, the family who owned the car came back, what do you think the group would have done? Continue raiding the car? Threaten the family to give them what they had? No, we would have backed off and apologize, telling them that we thought the car was abandoned and maybe tried to invite them into our group so we could share the supplies. Even though they were starving, I don't think any of the members of our group would have chosen to victimize those people. I won't speculate on what the Crooked Man intended to do or would have done if Georgie hadn't killed Faith and Lilly. But again, this defense was used as the Nuremberg trials as well. One Nazi officer refusing to gun down a Jewish child would not prevent other children or even that child from being gunned down by other officers. But morality isn't solely concerned with end results. It's also concerned with not violating established rules of conduct. And one of the most central one of those is "don't kill innocent people." German soldiers and guards ordered to slaughter countless people had about as much freedom as Georgie had to refuse. Both cases risk the person's livelihood and in the case of soldiers, there were severe consequences for disobedience. But it's still the moral thing to do in both cases.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2014 23:55:46 GMT
Vivian's live and Georgie's lives were both in danger. He killed the girls in fear. Yes, that's bad. But again, he'd prefer he and his loved ones live, so he just accepts it, and moves on. Some people think that way, and that doesn't make them bad people. In his mind, it was kill the girls, or die with the girls. Accepting your bad decisions isn't bad. Accepting them is just a way that people deal with guilt. Acceptance is the fifth stage of grief. Accepting bad things you've done doesn't make you bad. Not in the slightest. So long as you don't enjoy what you did, and so long as you were not in charge of the decision, you're fine. At least in my eyes. Lilly, our anagram for Georgie, didn't seem to think that nobody was coming back. Remember her noting specifically that they'd be monsters? Yet she never spoke of it again. She let it go and focused on more important things. She did kinda go crazy over that, but for different reasons. Those girls were going to get killed once Crookie made that decision. They may as well have been bitten. Think about all of Crooked Man's goons. One of them would've done it, at least. Georgie was just the one who was asked to. Refusing would've done nothing. Those girls were as dead as Jessie at that point. Yes and no. In Nazi Germany, people were allowed to quit their jobs. In the criminal underbelly, not so much. Let's look at this from the perspectives of a German scientist and a henchman refusing orders. If the scientist quits, he quits. He goes back to his family, and finds another job, with an extraordinary resume. If a criminal refuses his orders, a man like The Crooked Man wouldn't let that slide. Like Georgie said, then he'd be the one being "dealt with." Plus, those girls would die anyways. It's just a waste of Georgie's own life and livelihood to protect those girls to the point of refusing orders. It wouldn't have affected Faith and Lilly if Georgie refused. They would have died regardless. We're going to have to agree to disagree on the whole "accepting that bad things you did" thing. To me, it is far worse to be a remorseless killer than a remorseful one. The latter is redeemable, the former is not. Lilly and Clem disagreed on what the situation was. But here's the thing. If while we were deciding what to do, the family who owned the car came back, what do you think the group would have done? Continue raiding the car? Threaten the family to give them what they had? No, we would have backed off and apologize, telling them that we thought the car was abandoned and maybe tried to invite them into our group so we could share the supplies. Even though they were starving, I don't think any of the members of our group would have chosen to victimize those people. I won't speculate on what the Crooked Man intended to do or would have done if Georgie hadn't killed Faith and Lilly. But again, this defense was used as the Nuremberg trials as well. One Nazi officer refusing to gun down a Jewish child would not prevent other children or even that child from being gunned down by other officers. But morality isn't solely concerned with end results. It's also concerned with not violating established rules of conduct. And one of the most central one of those is "don't kill innocent people." German soldiers and guards ordered to slaughter countless people had about as much freedom as Georgie had to refuse. Both cases risk the person's livelihood and in the case of soldiers, there were severe consequences for disobedience. But it's still the moral thing to do in both cases. Sure, they would've backed off if the family showed up. But think about it like this, Dome. In this situation, since they were fucking with the family's turf, the family was an authority figure. If Bigby showed up while this was going on, those girls wouldn't have died. Having authority in the room changes the situation. I also don't think that the scientists who genuinely didn't want to do that should have been punished, if they genuinely had as much freedom as Georgie. The problem there lies in finding liars and people telling the truth. Georgie was telling the truth. I don't think people should be expected to put their lives on the line. That would be like charging a bank teller for robbery because they opened the vault with a gun to their head.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Jul 12, 2014 0:06:42 GMT
How is the family an authority figure? Sure they might have had guns, but even if they were completely defenseless and unarmed, Lee and the group wouldn't have taken advantage of that. It's not about having an authority there. It's about having a victim there, looking them in the eye, and still pulling the trigger.
Georgie may not have advocated for Faith and Lilly's death, but nothing he or anyone else said suggested that he put up much opposition. Georgie did what he did because it was his job and he knew that he would be "protected" for it. Just like the scientists who committed those atrocities.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 0:19:15 GMT
How is the family an authority figure? Sure they might have had guns, but even if they were completely defenseless and unarmed, Lee and the group wouldn't have taken advantage of that. It's not about having an authority there. It's about having a victim there, looking them in the eye, and still pulling the trigger. Georgie may not have advocated for Faith and Lilly's death, but nothing he or anyone else said suggested that he put up much opposition. Georgie did what he did because it was his job and he knew that he would be "protected" for it. Just like the scientists who committed those atrocities. It's about having the hand caught in the cookie jar. Coming in and stopping that hand makes you an authority figure. At least for our purposes. Even this analogy still doesn't hold much weight. Lee's group had other options that they likely would've used if the Stranger had appeared. I think the Jessie analogy makes more sense, because it's far closer. Someone fucked up, and Georgie/Rick's loved one is in danger because of it. Of course, the danger is less apparent in Georgie's place, but think of it this way. In the last discussion with Nerissa, she talked about how they just kinda fade. That indicates that Crooked Man killed many more before those two. This would show Georgie Crooked Man's brutality, and, while it makes him a huge coward, I don't blame Georgie for trying to go against such a brutal human being. It makes perfect sense that after all the killings that Crooked Man was behind, Georgie would not want to go against him in any large way, lest he wants to end up like Faith and Lilly.
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