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Post by IDEK on Aug 4, 2014 13:39:07 GMT
Ignoring this conversation: My grandmother watches each episode of the game, telling me what choices to make since she refuses to just learn to play the game herself. She left Sarah at the trailer park. ._. On top of that, in TWAU, she tore Gren's arm off, hurt Georgie, and killed Tweedle Dee. ....well.
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Post by Michael7123 on Aug 4, 2014 13:41:53 GMT
Ignoring this conversation: My grandmother watches each episode of the game, telling me what choices to make since she refuses to just learn to play the game herself. She left Sarah at the trailer park. ._. On top of that, in TWAU, she tore Gren's arm off, hurt Georgie, and killed Tweedle Dee. I'm not sure if your grandmother is a badass or just an ass (don't take offence, I'm sure she is an awesome human being).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 13:42:14 GMT
Also, I don't think Carver was seriously going to give Reggie a chance. Remember the conversation between Hank and Tavia?
Reggie was fucked the moment he helped them escape. He was still useful, so Carver kept him around, until he got new prisoners. Then he just found some bullshit excuse to get rid of him.
Carver is by far worse than Jane. The idea of leaving people who don't want to be saved, I disagree 100%, some people can be brought back, not all of them like Harp is saying, but you can't just give up on people like that, you have to try. Jane doesn't want to try because she's already gone through that once with her sister. I understand... But I disagree.
Also, it's not worse than Crawford. Crawford killed those who were 'weak'. Jane didn't, she was fine with people who were weak, but just... if they didn't want to go on anymore, she'd give up on them. I still don't think it's okay, but it's 10x better than what Crawford did.
As for the group thing, I also disagree. Those people were family, and you can't just leave family behind. That's my view on it anyway.
Overall, I liked Jane, but never once did I agree with her ideas.
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Post by Teacakes on Aug 4, 2014 13:44:56 GMT
Ignoring this conversation: My grandmother watches each episode of the game, telling me what choices to make since she refuses to just learn to play the game herself. She left Sarah at the trailer park. ._. On top of that, in TWAU, she tore Gren's arm off, hurt Georgie, and killed Tweedle Dee. I'm not sure if your grandmother is a badass or just an ass (don't take offence, I'm sure she is an awesome human being). I'd go with badass.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 13:45:52 GMT
Ignoring this conversation: My grandmother watches each episode of the game, telling me what choices to make since she refuses to just learn to play the game herself. She left Sarah at the trailer park. ._. On top of that, in TWAU, she tore Gren's arm off, hurt Georgie, and killed Tweedle Dee. I'm not sure if your grandmother is a badass or just an ass (don't take offence, I'm sure she is an awesome human being). Logic for leaving Sarah: They didn't have time, why risk Clem and Jane's lives to save Sarah when they couldn't get her to leave and they didn't have time? Gren's arm: He couldn't just be allowed to hurt people Hurting Georgie: No reason, she just didn't like Georgie Killing Tweedle Dee: Self-defense Oddly enough though, she didn't kill the Crooked Man, and also continues to judge me for leaving Lilly behind, saying it was the same as killing her(yet she helped smash Larry's head in with the saltlick)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 18:58:01 GMT
So you liked Crawford, too? Jane is a more processed Crawford. Leaving those who can't fend for themselves to die. That processing does not make a bad person into a good one. It makes a bad person into a slightly less bad person. Also, I don't believe that some people can't come back. That's bullshit. Given time, and life, Sarah would come back. She might be shaky. She might be weak, but bullshit, she would not stay that way forever. Not unless she was already off some. She kinda was, but she was not that off. Carver is a different beast. Let's look at his reasons for killing the people he killed. Keep in mind, this is all from his perspective. He still is an asshole. Just less of one than Jane. Walter: Part of the group who just murdered one of his men, and who stole his baby. Alvin: A man who was trying to steal his baby. Reggie: A man who was bringing his group down. Bonnie realized how much of an asshole Carver was, but she also spent next to no time with Jane. Jane shared that with the group, because they might think she went crazy, or try to stop her if she didn't tell them. And telling them didn't decrease her chances at all. She helped Rebecca and Clementine, because Clementine is someone she thinks has potential, and Rebecca was pregnant. Carver would do the same. Nothing she did at all hurt her chances, aside from bringing Clementine out. She brought Clementine out because why the fuck not? She didn't go out specifically for Luke and Sarah. I didn't get the same vibes from Janer that you did, for sure. "So you liked Crawford, too? Jane is a more processed Crawford. Leaving those who can't fend for themselves to die. That processing does not make a bad person into a good one. It makes a bad person into a slightly less bad person."
Let's outline Crawford. No kids, no elderly, monitored sick. Jane took a child (Clem) under her wing, ushered Rebecca (a pregnant lady) through a herd, and pushed to steal the meds for Rebecca. "Also, I don't believe that some people can't come back. That's bullshit. Given time, and life, Sarah would come back. She might be shaky. She might be weak, but bullshit, she would not stay that way forever. Not unless she was already off some. She kinda was, but she was not that off."She was definitely off some. This, combined with her sheltering and the PTSD would only serve to make her symptoms worse. Now, a very dark topic along these lines here. If you believe everyone can come back, why do some people commit suicide? Does Katjaa ring a bell? "Carver is a different beast. Let's look at his reasons for killing the people he killed. Keep in mind, this is all from his perspective. He still is an asshole. Just less of one than Jane."
Now, perspective from a sane, sarcastic person. Like me. "Walter: Part of the group who just murdered one of his men, and who stole his baby."Wow, what a menace Walter was. Obviously a threat, jolly ol' guy waving around an AK-47. Definitely needed to be put down. "Alvin: A man who was trying to steal his baby."
You probably had sex with another man's wife for favors. Now you're gonna automatically assume it's your child? No proof? Ok. "Reggie: A man who was bringing his group down."Oh no, Reggie didn't make his minions pick berries fast enough! Dinner's gonna be 5 minutes late! KILL HIM."Bonnie realized how much of an asshole Carver was, but she also spent next to no time with Jane. Jane shared that with the group, because they might think she went crazy, or try to stop her if she didn't tell them. And telling them didn't decrease her chances at all. She helped Rebecca and Clementine, because Clementine is someone she thinks has potential, and Rebecca was pregnant. Carver would do the same. Nothing she did at all hurt her chances, aside from bringing Clementine out. She brought Clementine out because why the fuck not? She didn't go out specifically for Luke and Sarah. I didn't get the same vibes from Janer that you did, for sure."
Now this part is just incorrigible semantics. You're saying Jane is an extension of Crawford, yet she's quite obviously willing to help Clementine and Rebecca, both of who would quite literally be defenseless on their own. I just don't see your logic here. Closing statement: I see everything from the player's point of view. Meaning, I'm not comparing characters by considering their personal viewpoints, I'm analyzing them from my overarching observations, so that my conclusions aren't distorted by the subjective characters. You wouldn't try to judge the world from a psychopath's mind, would you? Can Jane be an ass sometimes? Sure. But Carver, from most casual observer's point of view, is a being of pure evil, multitudes worse than Jane. He was literally written to be a primary antagonist. Compare Jane's lone wolf helping to a certain extent against her pragmatic judgement (which was more than enough; she almost saved Sarah twice depending on how you played the episode) vs. Carver's ruthlessly killing people, and you'll start to see where I'm coming from. Jane has humanity. Carver doesn't. That was part of the processing Jane went through to be more easily digestible. She still is rotten at the core. I refuse Sarah was off so much as to never recover. Kenny was worse when he lost Katjaa and Duck, and he's fine... Well... Aside from the whole stealing babies thing. Yeah, Carver was fucking mental, but he had half justifiable reasons for killing the people he killed. Also, Carver's judgement on Reggie seemed to be a sort of long contemplated killing. The berries were just the last straw. There was no excuse for leaving Sarah before the walkers were in the trailer. If Sarah still didn't want to come at that point, then sure, leave her. Not a second before that, though. Oh dear God. Jane had a couple differences to Crawford, in that she didn't care if someone was pregnant or a child. I have made a huge error. The fact that Crawford sent families with children on their own, and the fact that Crawford made pregnant women get abortions was not a defining characteristic. The main one that everyone focuses on and remembers is that Crawford killed those who were weak. Jane is essentially the same. Of course Carver seems more evil at first to the casual eye. He's a boring, generic villain. Jane is a character who's supposed to come off as likable, but who I couldn't get rid of fast enough. Wanna know why Jane tried to save Sarah twice? Here you go: Trailer: Clementine was staying back, and Luke would definitely not let Jane through until Clementine was up. Then, once Sarah was there, Luke wouldn't leave her either. Deck: Luke was weak post-coitus, I guess, and could only hold Jane there. The person who occupied the other area that would help her was Clementine, and Clementine was telling her to save Sarah. Both times she did what she did because if she didn't the people around her would become obstacles. She didn't actually care about Sarah. Like, at all.
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Post by thatstoomuchfestivity on Aug 5, 2014 0:06:03 GMT
"So you liked Crawford, too? Jane is a more processed Crawford. Leaving those who can't fend for themselves to die. That processing does not make a bad person into a good one. It makes a bad person into a slightly less bad person."
Let's outline Crawford. No kids, no elderly, monitored sick. Jane took a child (Clem) under her wing, ushered Rebecca (a pregnant lady) through a herd, and pushed to steal the meds for Rebecca. "Also, I don't believe that some people can't come back. That's bullshit. Given time, and life, Sarah would come back. She might be shaky. She might be weak, but bullshit, she would not stay that way forever. Not unless she was already off some. She kinda was, but she was not that off."She was definitely off some. This, combined with her sheltering and the PTSD would only serve to make her symptoms worse. Now, a very dark topic along these lines here. If you believe everyone can come back, why do some people commit suicide? Does Katjaa ring a bell? "Carver is a different beast. Let's look at his reasons for killing the people he killed. Keep in mind, this is all from his perspective. He still is an asshole. Just less of one than Jane."
Now, perspective from a sane, sarcastic person. Like me. "Walter: Part of the group who just murdered one of his men, and who stole his baby."Wow, what a menace Walter was. Obviously a threat, jolly ol' guy waving around an AK-47. Definitely needed to be put down. "Alvin: A man who was trying to steal his baby."
You probably had sex with another man's wife for favors. Now you're gonna automatically assume it's your child? No proof? Ok. "Reggie: A man who was bringing his group down."Oh no, Reggie didn't make his minions pick berries fast enough! Dinner's gonna be 5 minutes late! KILL HIM."Bonnie realized how much of an asshole Carver was, but she also spent next to no time with Jane. Jane shared that with the group, because they might think she went crazy, or try to stop her if she didn't tell them. And telling them didn't decrease her chances at all. She helped Rebecca and Clementine, because Clementine is someone she thinks has potential, and Rebecca was pregnant. Carver would do the same. Nothing she did at all hurt her chances, aside from bringing Clementine out. She brought Clementine out because why the fuck not? She didn't go out specifically for Luke and Sarah. I didn't get the same vibes from Janer that you did, for sure."
Now this part is just incorrigible semantics. You're saying Jane is an extension of Crawford, yet she's quite obviously willing to help Clementine and Rebecca, both of who would quite literally be defenseless on their own. I just don't see your logic here. Closing statement: I see everything from the player's point of view. Meaning, I'm not comparing characters by considering their personal viewpoints, I'm analyzing them from my overarching observations, so that my conclusions aren't distorted by the subjective characters. You wouldn't try to judge the world from a psychopath's mind, would you? Can Jane be an ass sometimes? Sure. But Carver, from most casual observer's point of view, is a being of pure evil, multitudes worse than Jane. He was literally written to be a primary antagonist. Compare Jane's lone wolf helping to a certain extent against her pragmatic judgement (which was more than enough; she almost saved Sarah twice depending on how you played the episode) vs. Carver's ruthlessly killing people, and you'll start to see where I'm coming from. Jane has humanity. Carver doesn't. That was part of the processing Jane went through to be more easily digestible. She still is rotten at the core. I refuse Sarah was off so much as to never recover. Kenny was worse when he lost Katjaa and Duck, and he's fine... Well... Aside from the whole stealing babies thing. Yeah, Carver was fucking mental, but he had half justifiable reasons for killing the people he killed. Also, Carver's judgement on Reggie seemed to be a sort of long contemplated killing. The berries were just the last straw. There was no excuse for leaving Sarah before the walkers were in the trailer. If Sarah still didn't want to come at that point, then sure, leave her. Not a second before that, though. Oh dear God. Jane had a couple differences to Crawford, in that she didn't care if someone was pregnant or a child. I have made a huge error. The fact that Crawford sent families with children on their own, and the fact that Crawford made pregnant women get abortions was not a defining characteristic. The main one that everyone focuses on and remembers is that Crawford killed those who were weak. Jane is essentially the same. Of course Carver seems more evil at first to the casual eye. He's a boring, generic villain. Jane is a character who's supposed to come off as likable, but who I couldn't get rid of fast enough. Wanna know why Jane tried to save Sarah twice? Here you go: Trailer: Clementine was staying back, and Luke would definitely not let Jane through until Clementine was up. Then, once Sarah was there, Luke wouldn't leave her either. Deck: Luke was weak post-coitus, I guess, and could only hold Jane there. The person who occupied the other area that would help her was Clementine, and Clementine was telling her to save Sarah. Both times she did what she did because if she didn't the people around her would become obstacles. She didn't actually care about Sarah. Like, at all. That one word basically sums up this entire argument. Like Zyphon, Dome and I think, Reggie was only kept around to entice the newcomers to stay for a little longer. Then he was given a task that he could easily screw up so Carver could give a reason for killing him. Really, the only error Reggie really talks about was helping the group escape. One mistake. Then we see Carver perceives the berry picking to be a fatal error. We're led to assume Carver is this harsh for minuscule errors if he judges you to be unfit. He's basically Crawford 2.0. His camp is a manifestation of Crawford. What are the two differences? He accepts Clem cause he see her as a future dictator, and keeps Sarah to appease the valuable doctor. He keeps Rebecca, because in his twisted mind, he's sure she carries his baby. As for Sarah, sometimes you have to let some people run their course. Remember the lady who was bit at the motel and was quite obviously going to die? Glenn and Lee had basically the same idea as you, that she could somehow be saved, that things weren't hopeless. Shit, I've tried to help people going through depression in real life, and they end up resenting you for it. That's obviously best handled by a psychiatrist, but how many of those are left in the apocalypse? Are they just going to make an appointment and watch all their problems disappear? And Jane. You said it best in your comment before, we just get different vibes from Jane. I'm not going to see it differently, you're not going to see it differently. I've already thoroughly explained my viewpoints regarding this. I think you're reading too far into this, in which Jane isn't Crawford 2.0, Carver is. Carver is that "boring, generic villain" Crawford Oberson was made out to be.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 0:36:24 GMT
One thing about Carver being boring and generic... What happened to him being smart? Carlos said he was very smart, and we are led to believe in episode two that it took him about ten seconds to think ahead three moves in a chess game that he just happened to take a glance at. Meanwhile, in episode three, he doesn't know what the word overzealous means. Well, he knew, but he was unsure. Aside from the chess tihng in episode two, and Carlos saying he's smart, he doesn't actually seem to be incredibly smart. I mean, I guess he had all those speeches and what not too, but if he was meant to b smart, why even put in that line that made him look like a bit of an idiot? That line had no purpose than to go against the already established characterization for him...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 0:47:59 GMT
One thing about Carver being boring and generic... What happened to him being smart? Carlos said he was very smart, and we are led to believe in episode two that it took him about ten seconds to think ahead three moves in a chess game that he just happened to take a glance at. Meanwhile, in episode three, he doesn't know what the word overzealous means. Well, he knew, but he was unsure. Aside from the chess tihng in episode two, and Carlos saying he's smart, he doesn't actually seem to be incredibly smart. I mean, I guess he had all those speeches and what not too, but if he was meant to b smart, why even put in that line that made him look like a bit of an idiot? That line had no purpose than to go against the already established characterization for him... I remember seeing a huge tumblr post about Carver's genius during the events in the ski lodge, but that's still only Episode 2.
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Post by Michael7123 on Aug 5, 2014 1:48:20 GMT
One thing about Carver being boring and generic... What happened to him being smart? Carlos said he was very smart, and we are led to believe in episode two that it took him about ten seconds to think ahead three moves in a chess game that he just happened to take a glance at. Meanwhile, in episode three, he doesn't know what the word overzealous means. Well, he knew, but he was unsure. Aside from the chess tihng in episode two, and Carlos saying he's smart, he doesn't actually seem to be incredibly smart. I mean, I guess he had all those speeches and what not too, but if he was meant to b smart, why even put in that line that made him look like a bit of an idiot? That line had no purpose than to go against the already established characterization for him... I thought the overzealous line was just his way of talking. I felt like he was just dragging it out to make Carlos feel more miserable.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 1:53:23 GMT
Episode 2 Carver disappeared. Episode 3 Carver was a new character.
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Post by Michael7123 on Aug 5, 2014 2:02:05 GMT
Episode 2 Carver disappeared. Episode 3 Carver was a new character. Kinda. I don't think it was quite as bad as everyone thinks, but there was a difference. I'm changing that in my fic. Shameless plug complete.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 2:09:55 GMT
Episode 2 Carver disappeared. Episode 3 Carver was a new character. Kinda. I don't think it was quite as bad as everyone thinks, but there was a difference. I'm changing that in my fic. Shameless plug complete. The intelligence was there, it was just kind of... overridden by rage? I mean, he's been out there managing three other people for god knows how long, then he comes back and he's instantly expected to take the pressure of around a hundred again.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2014 2:19:41 GMT
So about that bet? Does it count for both forums?
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Post by Michael7123 on Aug 5, 2014 2:39:19 GMT
So about that bet? Does it count for both forums? I can't figure out how to change my avatar over on telltale. So no.
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