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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 23:34:19 GMT
I'm just going to say this, as you've failed to change my opinion in the slightest, and it seems that that is mutual. you have your own opinion, but stop telling people to skip Bioshock 2(which is still canon). Let them make their own decision about it. There are plenty of people who like Bioshock 2, and it's clearly not just some piece of crap. Just stop, please. I am not saying Bioshock 2 is absolute crap, trust me I know what those are like, its not Ride to Hell, its just, average, and for the last time, its not canon, if you can show me proof that my favorite game developer in the industry says its canon, then please, show me, I wouldn't be complaining, sometimes I am wrong, but as far as I know, he never talks about it, he skips conversations about it, and Burial at Sea part 2 reconned a major plot point, how is that still canon? I don't think he;s said it's canon, but that's because I don't think it's come up as an issue, I just linked to something explaining the pair bonding thing between Eleanor and Delta(Oh, and the prototypes are better because they are more intelligent and have slightly more freewill, though aren't as tough. Ryan wanted toughness over intelligence). Also, Bioshock 2 DOES have a position in the plot, well, maybe not the connected plot of Bioshock, Infinite, and Burial at Sea, but it wasn't just a rehashed Bioshock. The whole idea of creating Utopia though one controlled body(The great Family of Rapture or whatever she called it), and the bond between Eleanor and Delta, which I thought was stronger than that of Booker and Elizabeth, even though Delta doesn't speak. That might just be down to opinion. Regardless, it does have a unique story, so please don't say otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 23:36:20 GMT
Again, proof? They very clearly made that scene out to be before 1959 in Bioshock 2, in part 2, its clear after, thus retconning Bioshock 2, and notice how nothing Bioshock 2 related is ever mentioned in Burial at Sea, or Infinite for that matter, if Sinclair had not been mentioned in Bioshock 1, then it would have been nowhere. I forgot the link at first. It's there now.
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Post by Rock114 on Jun 22, 2014 23:39:49 GMT
I'll just throw my two cents in here and say that if it wasn't canon, it would have been declared non canon. Unless you find Ken Levine or someone outright saying that Bioshock 2 isn't canon, then it should be regarded as if it's canon.
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jun 22, 2014 23:43:51 GMT
I'll just throw my two cents in here and say that if it wasn't canon, it would have been declared non canon. Unless you find Ken Levine or someone outright saying that Bioshock 2 isn't canon, then it should be regarded as if it's canon. I'm not saying its been confirmed to be not canon, but it was never confirmed to be canon either, and like I said, a major plot point was ruled over in Burial at Sea part 2 with no explanation as to why or how Bioshock 2 now works.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 23:45:01 GMT
I'll just throw my two cents in here and say that if it wasn't canon, it would have been declared non canon. Unless you find Ken Levine or someone outright saying that Bioshock 2 isn't canon, then it should be regarded as if it's canon. I'm not saying its been confirmed to be not canon, but it was never confirmed to be canon either, and like I said, a major plot point was ruled over in Burial at Sea part 2 with no explanation as to why or how Bioshock 2 now works. I just gave the explanation, look up to the link I posted.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 23:52:15 GMT
Also this video sums up my opinion well enough. I regret watching this video. It's so fucking stupid and doesn't bring up many valid points except that he didn't like Bioshock 2. Oh well. For example, I actually liked defending the little sisters. You had to time prepare, set up traps, hack things in advance(can't do any of that in Infinite). I liked the strategy and planning element of this, if you were smart, or if you even tried, it was easy. Sounds like this guy wasn't good at it/didn't try ergo said it was awful. He's basically just insulting the game, not bringing up valid points to prove his dislike of it. ._.
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jun 22, 2014 23:53:42 GMT
I agree with the guy, that part in Bioshock 1 was rather annoying, and the fact they made that a main mechanic bothered me, and he does bring up a point, why the hell does saving a Little Sister maybe spawn a Big Sister? Why?
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Post by Rock114 on Jun 22, 2014 23:55:48 GMT
I'll just throw my two cents in here and say that if it wasn't canon, it would have been declared non canon. Unless you find Ken Levine or someone outright saying that Bioshock 2 isn't canon, then it should be regarded as if it's canon. I'm not saying its been confirmed to be not canon, but it was never confirmed to be canon either, and like I said, a major plot point was ruled over in Burial at Sea part 2 with no explanation as to why or how Bioshock 2 now works. But what I'm saying is that a work doesn't need to be confirmed to be canon if it's the sequel to something. Did they ever have to officially declare "Empire Strikes Back" to be canon to "A New Hope"? Did they ever have to declare that "Terminator 2" was canon to "Terminator"? Stuff like this has to be officially declared non-canon if the creator wants it to be non-canon, at least in my opinion. Simply not talking about it means nothing in itself.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 23:55:51 GMT
I agree with the guy, that part in Bioshock 1 was rather annoying, and the fact they made that a main mechanic bothered me, and he does bring up a point, why the hell does saving a Little Sister maybe spawn a Big Sister? Why? Yeah, one point officially made. That makes little sense. But at the same time, Big Sisters were pretty enjoyable boss/mini-boss fights.
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jun 23, 2014 0:01:46 GMT
They were enjoyable, its just why does saving them piss them off? Harvesting them, oh it makes sense, but saving them?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2014 0:05:57 GMT
They were enjoyable, its just why does saving them piss them off? Harvesting them, oh it makes sense, but saving them? We can agree on this. But it doesn't really make or break the game.
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jun 23, 2014 0:27:46 GMT
I'm not saying its been confirmed to be not canon, but it was never confirmed to be canon either, and like I said, a major plot point was ruled over in Burial at Sea part 2 with no explanation as to why or how Bioshock 2 now works. But what I'm saying is that a work doesn't need to be confirmed to be canon if it's the sequel to something. Did they ever have to officially declare "Empire Strikes Back" to be canon to "A New Hope"? Did they ever have to declare that "Terminator 2" was canon to "Terminator"? Stuff like this has to be officially declared non-canon if the creator wants it to be non-canon, at least in my opinion. Simply not talking about it means nothing in itself. True, but there was not a moment where in Empire Strikes Back totally recons a major scene from A New Hope, that would have been like, say, saying Luke didn't blow up the Death Star, it was someone else, there is no explanation, and it really does change a very, very important plot point, I don't know, I have read literally hundreds of articles about Ken Levine and in none of them does he ever act like he liked Bioshock 2, he never outwardly says he hates it, but you can just tell he's not a fan of it, I don't know, the the fact there was a major contradiction in the finale chapter of Bioshock seems more then a confidence, and from a story telling prospective, with what they did in Burial at Sea, it seems odd to continue on after that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2014 0:30:39 GMT
But what I'm saying is that a work doesn't need to be confirmed to be canon if it's the sequel to something. Did they ever have to officially declare "Empire Strikes Back" to be canon to "A New Hope"? Did they ever have to declare that "Terminator 2" was canon to "Terminator"? Stuff like this has to be officially declared non-canon if the creator wants it to be non-canon, at least in my opinion. Simply not talking about it means nothing in itself. True, but there was not a moment where in Empire Strikes Back totally recons a major scene from A New Hope, that would have been like, say, saying Luke didn't blow up the Death Star, it was someone else, there is no explanation, and it really does change a very, very important plot point, I don't know, I have read literally hundreds of articles about Ken Levine and in none of them does he ever act like he liked Bioshock 2, he never outwardly says he hates it, but you can just tell he's not a fan of it, I don't know, the the fact there was a major contradiction in the finale chapter of Bioshock seems more then a confidence, and from a story telling prospective, with what they did in Burial at Sea, it seems odd to continue on after that. Perhaps it is your dislike of Bioshock 2 that makes you think as if Ken Levine doesn't like it?
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Post by Bioshock Infinite WD on Jun 23, 2014 0:33:37 GMT
Nah, that's not it, I mean the closest I ever saw Ken Levine say he hates Bioshock 2, was when he mentioned that he wanted to do something more unique then rehashing Bioshock, that is why he didn't work on Bioshock 2, he wanted something more unique, something not copy and pasted, hell even when he did return to Rapture, he didn't copy and paste assets, he made entirely new ones when he didn't need to, if there is one thing you can say about him beyond a shadow of a doubt, he was not one to rehash or milk his own franchises, I mean god, his company made like seven games in 15 years.
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Post by Rock114 on Jun 23, 2014 1:23:06 GMT
But what I'm saying is that a work doesn't need to be confirmed to be canon if it's the sequel to something. Did they ever have to officially declare "Empire Strikes Back" to be canon to "A New Hope"? Did they ever have to declare that "Terminator 2" was canon to "Terminator"? Stuff like this has to be officially declared non-canon if the creator wants it to be non-canon, at least in my opinion. Simply not talking about it means nothing in itself. True, but there was not a moment where in Empire Strikes Back totally recons a major scene from A New Hope, that would have been like, say, saying Luke didn't blow up the Death Star, it was someone else, there is no explanation, and it really does change a very, very important plot point, I don't know, I have read literally hundreds of articles about Ken Levine and in none of them does he ever act like he liked Bioshock 2, he never outwardly says he hates it, but you can just tell he's not a fan of it, I don't know, the the fact there was a major contradiction in the finale chapter of Bioshock seems more then a confidence, and from a story telling prospective, with what they did in Burial at Sea, it seems odd to continue on after that. Technically, there was a scene like that. The infamous revelation that Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father. They hadn't planned that when they made "A New Hope", so when Obi-Wan told Luke his father was dead on Tatooine, he really meant it, and not just from "A certain point of view". Sure, that whole thing turned out well in the end, but it was still a retcon and still canon to the previous movie.
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