|
|
Post by Rock114 on Apr 27, 2017 22:27:46 GMT
Ah yes, the "Fantasy" scenario. Like the one where the St. Johns renounce cannibalism after Lee tells them it isn't the answer, or the one where the forest bandits give back all the meds that were stolen because they realized that it's better to Just Say No. But seriously, chances of successfully reviving Larry were slim to none and even if he did survive and go do all the things you say he would have absolutely murdered Ben the second he found out he was stealing from the group, continued to blackmail Lee with his past in order to get whatever he wanted, and generally terrorize everyone in the group as he tried to lead them through Lilly. And then the group would have fallen apart anyway. Not saying that what Kenny did was a great thing, but it was pretty much the best choice he could have made in that moment. It's how he acted afterward that was horseshit. Well, to be fair, the only part that seems unlikely is Larry surviving that one moment in the meat locker. Past that, him being alive would have left Lilly with a clear head, and a clear headed Lilly would not have been so hasty in her search for the thief. But yeah, odds are, from the observer's objective POV, that Larry was gonna die. But the thing is, nobody in world is all that capable of being objective. Lilly's view is clouded by her father's tragic death. Kenny's view is clouded by his self-assuring "I made the right call" line of thinking. Clem's POV was clouded by her fear. Even Lee couldn't be objective here, taking the same blindspots that Lilly/Kenny did, depending on his choice. He took part in this, too. If he did survive, of course it would've been bad for our protagonist, but what does that have to do with anything? I'm not trying to argue that Larry should have lived, but I'm saying that Lilly isn't a horrible person for losing her shit. Bio tries to make it out as if Lilly was some sort of uber-piece-of-shit. She's not. In fact, she's miles less shitty than Kenny, who's petty to the point of murder, stupid, and often cowardly. The fact of the matter is that Lilly was traumatized in a worse way than ANYONE else in S1. She lost all her direction in life, in a more real way than anyone else. Sure, Kenny may have lost his reason for living, but Kenny at least had control over his family. He set the course. It was his boat in Fort Lauderdale they were going to, the family followed his orders. He told them what direction they were going, and they went along without question. Lilly lived her life taking orders from Larry, doing whatever he said to do. And not only did she lose him in a more gruesome and disgusting way than anybody else lost their loved ones, she lost him to the hands of the people she trusted, AND she lost the one person who gave her direction. Of course she's going to fuck up after that. Of course she's going to snap, and of course she's going to mistrust her own people. What else would she have done after that? I'm not arguing that Lilly wasn't traumatized, man. I completely understand that. I was just pointing out how completely unlikely your rosy scenario was given that Larry's a huge prick who terrorized the group from day one and if anything would have accelerated the destruction of the group once it was discovered that someone was stealing stuff. I'm not arguing that Lilly is a terrible person, I was just making fun of the "Golden Path" predictions for if Larry had lived. But... I gotta step in and defend my boy Kenny here because you had to bring him into this. He's not worse than Lilly. Lilly isn't some misunderstood cinnamon roll. She's just as much a piece of shit as Kenny, maybe more. No matter how nice you are she'll throw Lee and Clem under the bus if it means saving herself. Even if you agree with Larry in the drugstore (About murdering a child in front of his parents), even if you give him and her food, even if you try to save Larry's life despite having no real reason to beyond "It's the right thing" (Which is also extremely debatable), and even if you take her with you even after she straight up shoots one of Lee's best friends in the face, she will always, always, ALWAYS tell Kenny that Lee was a murderer. And she will, every time without fail if you take her with you, lie to Lee about taking off in the RV with him and Clem and she will abandon you both. No matter how nice you've been to her. Despite being the only thing close to family she has left. Kenny's a fucking son of a bitch, but goddamnit if you side with him he'll lay it all on the line for you. Do the same thing for Lilly and she shoots one of your best friends and leaves you and Clem in a group of people that are either grossly incompetent or hate you, one of whom has nearly let you die twice in this scenario. And you can't pin her fucking over Lee and Clem like that only on her snapping because of Larry's death, as awful as it was. Maybe revealing his secret like she did, maybe, but she was clearly manipulating Lee with their friendship to get him out of the RV so she could dump his ass and she did it without a second thought, and I have to stress this again, she does it no matter what. How is that not worse than anything Kenny did? |
|
|
|
Post by Niccc on Apr 27, 2017 22:47:32 GMT
What do I think about Kenny?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 23:24:00 GMT
my opinions on kenny are boats, wellington, and "i cant feel muh legs"
|
|
|
|
Post by Rock114 on Apr 27, 2017 23:33:15 GMT
my opinions on kenny are boats, wellington, and "i cant feel muh legs" Regardless of how you feel about him the man is a quote gold mine. |
|
|
|
Post by jake frost on Apr 27, 2017 23:33:16 GMT
I don't think Larry would want to leave the motel because he's a stubborn old mule
That's my contribution to the discussion.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 23:57:37 GMT
Well, to be fair, the only part that seems unlikely is Larry surviving that one moment in the meat locker. Past that, him being alive would have left Lilly with a clear head, and a clear headed Lilly would not have been so hasty in her search for the thief. But yeah, odds are, from the observer's objective POV, that Larry was gonna die. But the thing is, nobody in world is all that capable of being objective. Lilly's view is clouded by her father's tragic death. Kenny's view is clouded by his self-assuring "I made the right call" line of thinking. Clem's POV was clouded by her fear. Even Lee couldn't be objective here, taking the same blindspots that Lilly/Kenny did, depending on his choice. He took part in this, too. If he did survive, of course it would've been bad for our protagonist, but what does that have to do with anything? I'm not trying to argue that Larry should have lived, but I'm saying that Lilly isn't a horrible person for losing her shit. Bio tries to make it out as if Lilly was some sort of uber-piece-of-shit. She's not. In fact, she's miles less shitty than Kenny, who's petty to the point of murder, stupid, and often cowardly. The fact of the matter is that Lilly was traumatized in a worse way than ANYONE else in S1. She lost all her direction in life, in a more real way than anyone else. Sure, Kenny may have lost his reason for living, but Kenny at least had control over his family. He set the course. It was his boat in Fort Lauderdale they were going to, the family followed his orders. He told them what direction they were going, and they went along without question. Lilly lived her life taking orders from Larry, doing whatever he said to do. And not only did she lose him in a more gruesome and disgusting way than anybody else lost their loved ones, she lost him to the hands of the people she trusted, AND she lost the one person who gave her direction. Of course she's going to fuck up after that. Of course she's going to snap, and of course she's going to mistrust her own people. What else would she have done after that? I'm not arguing that Lilly wasn't traumatized, man. I completely understand that. I was just pointing out how completely unlikely your rosy scenario was given that Larry's a huge prick who terrorized the group from day one and if anything would have accelerated the destruction of the group once it was discovered that someone was stealing stuff. I'm not arguing that Lilly is a terrible person, I was just making fun of the "Golden Path" predictions for if Larry had lived. But... I gotta step in and defend my boy Kenny here because you had to bring him into this. He's not worse than Lilly. Lilly isn't some misunderstood cinnamon roll. She's just as much a piece of shit as Kenny, maybe more. No matter how nice you are she'll throw Lee and Clem under the bus if it means saving herself. Even if you agree with Larry in the drugstore (About murdering a child in front of his parents), even if you give him and her food, even if you try to save Larry's life despite having no real reason to beyond "It's the right thing" (Which is also extremely debatable), and even if you take her with you even after she straight up shoots one of Lee's best friends in the face, she will always, always, ALWAYS tell Kenny that Lee was a murderer. And she will, every time without fail if you take her with you, lie to Lee about taking off in the RV with him and Clem and she will abandon you both. No matter how nice you've been to her. Despite being the only thing close to family she has left. Kenny's a fucking son of a bitch, but goddamnit if you side with him he'll lay it all on the line for you. Do the same thing for Lilly and she shoots one of your best friends and leaves you and Clem in a group of people that are either grossly incompetent or hate you, one of whom has nearly let you die twice in this scenario. And you can't pin her fucking over Lee and Clem like that only on her snapping because of Larry's death, as awful as it was. Maybe revealing his secret like she did, maybe, but she was clearly manipulating Lee with their friendship to get him out of the RV so she could dump his ass and she did it without a second thought, and I have to stress this again, she does it no matter what. How is that not worse than anything Kenny did? Eh. Fair. While having Larry around would have caused problems, we can at least agree that Duck and Kat wouldn't have died in the same way though, right? Kenny is a piece of shit to Clementine, an 11 year old girl, no matter how nice you are to him. What Lilly did, telling Kenny about Lee, was a snap judgement, which she made in an attempt to keep Kenny and Lee from killing her on the spot. She throws Lee and Clem under the bus because of her overwhelming paranoia. This group betrayed her not once, but twice. Even if Lee is a nice guy, and even if Clem would be better off with Lilly, they're still part of "the group." You shouldn't blame her for being that paranoid, imo. Also, lol, let's not forget Kenny and Sarita, alright? Kenny would have beat Clem's ass if she put down Sarita before she turned. Kenny is a scary motherfucker. Also note that Lilly left you with a doctor, and a train that she would have heard Kat talking to Lee about. Kenny tried to kill Lee because he didn't like him very much. Lilly killed Carley/tried to kill Ben because she didn't trust them. Kenny left Lee to die SOLELY because Lee didn't want to kill Larry. Lilly took the RV because she was worried for her life, and was too paranoid to see Lee as a friend. Kenny does horrible things because he's petty. Lilly only ever did horrible things under the influence of her abusive father, or when she was out of her mind paranoid, worried for her life. There's a big difference there. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 23:58:17 GMT
I don't think Larry would want to leave the motel because he's a stubborn old mule That's my contribution to the discussion. When the bandits come, something tells me that Larry would gladly have left. |
|
|
|
Post by jake frost on Apr 28, 2017 0:22:20 GMT
I don't think Larry would want to leave the motel because he's a stubborn old mule That's my contribution to the discussion. When the bandits come, something tells me that Larry would gladly have left. I feel like he'd be the 'stand and fight you pieces of shit' type, but probably would run if the going got tough, yeah. |
|
|
|
Post by Rock114 on Apr 28, 2017 1:02:31 GMT
I'm not arguing that Lilly wasn't traumatized, man. I completely understand that. I was just pointing out how completely unlikely your rosy scenario was given that Larry's a huge prick who terrorized the group from day one and if anything would have accelerated the destruction of the group once it was discovered that someone was stealing stuff. I'm not arguing that Lilly is a terrible person, I was just making fun of the "Golden Path" predictions for if Larry had lived. But... I gotta step in and defend my boy Kenny here because you had to bring him into this. He's not worse than Lilly. Lilly isn't some misunderstood cinnamon roll. She's just as much a piece of shit as Kenny, maybe more. No matter how nice you are she'll throw Lee and Clem under the bus if it means saving herself. Even if you agree with Larry in the drugstore (About murdering a child in front of his parents), even if you give him and her food, even if you try to save Larry's life despite having no real reason to beyond "It's the right thing" (Which is also extremely debatable), and even if you take her with you even after she straight up shoots one of Lee's best friends in the face, she will always, always, ALWAYS tell Kenny that Lee was a murderer. And she will, every time without fail if you take her with you, lie to Lee about taking off in the RV with him and Clem and she will abandon you both. No matter how nice you've been to her. Despite being the only thing close to family she has left. Kenny's a fucking son of a bitch, but goddamnit if you side with him he'll lay it all on the line for you. Do the same thing for Lilly and she shoots one of your best friends and leaves you and Clem in a group of people that are either grossly incompetent or hate you, one of whom has nearly let you die twice in this scenario. And you can't pin her fucking over Lee and Clem like that only on her snapping because of Larry's death, as awful as it was. Maybe revealing his secret like she did, maybe, but she was clearly manipulating Lee with their friendship to get him out of the RV so she could dump his ass and she did it without a second thought, and I have to stress this again, she does it no matter what. How is that not worse than anything Kenny did? Eh. Fair. While having Larry around would have caused problems, we can at least agree that Duck and Kat wouldn't have died in the same way though, right? Kenny is a piece of shit to Clementine, an 11 year old girl, no matter how nice you are to him. What Lilly did, telling Kenny about Lee, was a snap judgement, which she made in an attempt to keep Kenny and Lee from killing her on the spot. She throws Lee and Clem under the bus because of her overwhelming paranoia. This group betrayed her not once, but twice. Even if Lee is a nice guy, and even if Clem would be better off with Lilly, they're still part of "the group." You shouldn't blame her for being that paranoid, imo. Also, lol, let's not forget Kenny and Sarita, alright? Kenny would have beat Clem's ass if she put down Sarita before she turned. Kenny is a scary motherfucker. Also note that Lilly left you with a doctor, and a train that she would have heard Kat talking to Lee about. Kenny tried to kill Lee because he didn't like him very much. Lilly killed Carley/tried to kill Ben because she didn't trust them. Kenny left Lee to die SOLELY because Lee didn't want to kill Larry. Lilly took the RV because she was worried for her life, and was too paranoid to see Lee as a friend. Kenny does horrible things because he's petty. Lilly only ever did horrible things under the influence of her abusive father, or when she was out of her mind paranoid, worried for her life. There's a big difference there. Eh, maybe. Who knows. I never said Kenny wasn't a piece of shit, because he's going through awful stuff too, just like Lilly was. But he never threw Clem under the bus like Lilly did with her and Lee. It wasn't a snap judgement. The decision had already been made at that point to either tie her up or exile her from the group. She was just intent on bringing Lee down with her. And it's a pretty shitty thing for Lilly to still classify Lee and Clem as part of "The Group" if they've been nothing but supportive of her every step of the way. Again, NO MATTER WHAT she will fuck you over to save her own skin. That is something you don't seem to want to admit. I do blame her for screwing over the two people who could very well have consistently had her back and been there for her in her darkest hour. That's not loyalty, that's selfishness. She manipulated Lee into agreeing to abandon the group and then took off without him, her best (Only, in fact) friend, the moment he stepped off the RV. You know who else tried something like that? Jane. Except Jane was at least honest about wanting to take Clem with her. The "too paranoid to see Lee as her friend" excuse just doesn't hold up if he's done everything in his power to be on her side. Lol, when did Kenny beat Clem's ass? He never laid a hand on her at any time in either season. He's scary, sure, but he'd never hurt Clem, or intend to hurt her. Can't say the same for Lilly who just ditched her with a dysfunctional group of people who hated her guardian to save herself. As for knowing about the train it's entirely possible to go into the RV immediately after everyone gets out, grab the pencil, and have Lilly leave your ass behind before anyone even mentions anything about the train. And I'm gonna point out that yeah, Kenny tried to let Lee die because he didn't like him, but Lilly outright did kill Carley because she disliked her. Lilly always hated Carley, all the way back to Episode 1, and if Carley is alive Lilly starts throwing accusations at her first. When Doug is alive she just cuts straight to accusing Ben. Then outside the RV she decided she had it with Carley and blew her brains out. Saying she thought Carley was the thief was just a flimsy justification. That wasn't paranoia. It was hatred. Just look at her right before she does it. Shit, not even Kenny did that to Ben after he confessed his involvement in his family's death. And he had a gun on him the entire time so he could have easily done it. You can't foist all the blame for Lilly's horrible actions onto her dad because she's still a human being capable of making her own choices. Being raised by Larry obviously didn't do any favors for her, I freely admit, but when it comes to things like arguing for Duck's death that's just too big to pass up. All to make her dad happy. Kenny's loyal if you're loyal (Almost to a fault) to him. Lilly isn't. It's pretty clear cut. Not saying I hate her or anything, but come on, saying Kenny's far worse than her is just silly. They're so similar you can't really make excuses for one without them applying to the other. Paranoia, anger, devotion to family, their "My way or the highway" attitudes, desiring to be the leader... |
|
|
|
Post by Rock114 on Apr 28, 2017 1:04:04 GMT
I don't think Larry would want to leave the motel because he's a stubborn old mule That's my contribution to the discussion. When the bandits come, something tells me that Larry would gladly have left. Maybe, but he might hold his ground instead. I mean, they're just a bunch of methed up, inbred, forest hillbillies. They got nothin' on Charlie. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 1:24:28 GMT
Eh. Fair. While having Larry around would have caused problems, we can at least agree that Duck and Kat wouldn't have died in the same way though, right? Kenny is a piece of shit to Clementine, an 11 year old girl, no matter how nice you are to him. What Lilly did, telling Kenny about Lee, was a snap judgement, which she made in an attempt to keep Kenny and Lee from killing her on the spot. She throws Lee and Clem under the bus because of her overwhelming paranoia. This group betrayed her not once, but twice. Even if Lee is a nice guy, and even if Clem would be better off with Lilly, they're still part of "the group." You shouldn't blame her for being that paranoid, imo. Also, lol, let's not forget Kenny and Sarita, alright? Kenny would have beat Clem's ass if she put down Sarita before she turned. Kenny is a scary motherfucker. Also note that Lilly left you with a doctor, and a train that she would have heard Kat talking to Lee about. Kenny tried to kill Lee because he didn't like him very much. Lilly killed Carley/tried to kill Ben because she didn't trust them. Kenny left Lee to die SOLELY because Lee didn't want to kill Larry. Lilly took the RV because she was worried for her life, and was too paranoid to see Lee as a friend. Kenny does horrible things because he's petty. Lilly only ever did horrible things under the influence of her abusive father, or when she was out of her mind paranoid, worried for her life. There's a big difference there. Eh, maybe. Who knows. I never said Kenny wasn't a piece of shit, because he's going through awful stuff too, just like Lilly was. But he never threw Clem under the bus like Lilly did with her and Lee. It wasn't a snap judgement. The decision had already been made at that point to either tie her up or exile her from the group. She was just intent on bringing Lee down with her. And it's a pretty shitty thing for Lilly to still classify Lee and Clem as part of "The Group" if they've been nothing but supportive of her every step of the way. Again, NO MATTER WHAT she will fuck you over to save her own skin. That is something you don't seem to want to admit. I do blame her for screwing over the two people who could very well have consistently had her back and been there for her in her darkest hour. That's not loyalty, that's selfishness. She manipulated Lee into agreeing to abandon the group and then took off without him, her best (Only, in fact) friend, the moment he stepped off the RV. You know who else tried something like that? Jane. Except Jane was at least honest about wanting to take Clem with her. The "too paranoid to see Lee as her friend" excuse just doesn't hold up if he's done everything in his power to be on her side. Lol, when did Kenny beat Clem's ass? He never laid a hand on her at any time in either season. He's scary, sure, but he'd never hurt Clem, or intend to hurt her. Can't say the same for Lilly who just ditched her with a dysfunctional group of people who hated her guardian to save herself. As for knowing about the train it's entirely possible to go into the RV immediately after everyone gets out, grab the pencil, and have Lilly leave your ass behind before anyone even mentions anything about the train. And I'm gonna point out that yeah, Kenny tried to let Lee die because he didn't like him, but Lilly outright did kill Carley because she disliked her. Lilly always hated Carley, all the way back to Episode 1, and if Carley is alive Lilly starts throwing accusations at her first. When Doug is alive she just cuts straight to accusing Ben. Then outside the RV she decided she had it with Carley and blew her brains out. Saying she thought Carley was the thief was just a flimsy justification. That wasn't paranoia. It was hatred. Just look at her right before she does it. Shit, not even Kenny did that to Ben after he confessed his involvement in his family's death. And he had a gun on him the entire time so he could have easily done it. You can't foist all the blame for Lilly's horrible actions onto her dad because she's still a human being capable of making her own choices. Being raised by Larry obviously didn't do any favors for her, I freely admit, but when it comes to things like arguing for Duck's death that's just too big to pass up. All to make her dad happy. Kenny's loyal if you're loyal (Almost to a fault) to him. Lilly isn't. It's pretty clear cut. Not saying I hate her or anything, but come on, saying Kenny's far worse than her is just silly. They're so similar you can't really make excuses for one without them applying to the other. Paranoia, anger, devotion to family, their "My way or the highway" attitudes, desiring to be the leader... Holy. Shit. I just wrote like an essay in response to this, and then I accidentally went back a page. Fuck me. |
|
|
|
Post by Niccc on Apr 28, 2017 1:39:03 GMT
Eh. Fair. While having Larry around would have caused problems, we can at least agree that Duck and Kat wouldn't have died in the same way though, right? Kenny is a piece of shit to Clementine, an 11 year old girl, no matter how nice you are to him. What Lilly did, telling Kenny about Lee, was a snap judgement, which she made in an attempt to keep Kenny and Lee from killing her on the spot. She throws Lee and Clem under the bus because of her overwhelming paranoia. This group betrayed her not once, but twice. Even if Lee is a nice guy, and even if Clem would be better off with Lilly, they're still part of "the group." You shouldn't blame her for being that paranoid, imo. Also, lol, let's not forget Kenny and Sarita, alright? Kenny would have beat Clem's ass if she put down Sarita before she turned. Kenny is a scary motherfucker. Also note that Lilly left you with a doctor, and a train that she would have heard Kat talking to Lee about. Kenny tried to kill Lee because he didn't like him very much. Lilly killed Carley/tried to kill Ben because she didn't trust them. Kenny left Lee to die SOLELY because Lee didn't want to kill Larry. Lilly took the RV because she was worried for her life, and was too paranoid to see Lee as a friend. Kenny does horrible things because he's petty. Lilly only ever did horrible things under the influence of her abusive father, or when she was out of her mind paranoid, worried for her life. There's a big difference there. Lol, when did Kenny beat Clem's ass? He never laid a hand on her at any time in either season. I wouldn't call it 'beating her ass' but if you try to stop him from punching Arvo, he elbows you pretty fuckin' hard, and he doesn't even apologize or anything, he's just like "What? I thought you had a taste for this sort of thing." Also, he pushes her around violently several times, but that can be argued since he was doing that to get her to back off during his murder rampage against Jane. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 1:39:44 GMT
Lol, when did Kenny beat Clem's ass? He never laid a hand on her at any time in either season. I wouldn't call it 'beating her ass' but if you try to stop him from punching Arvo, he elbows you pretty fuckin' hard, and he doesn't even apologize or anything, he's just like "What? I thought you had a taste for this sort of thing." Also, he pushes her around violently several times, but that can be argued since he was doing that to get her to back off during his murder rampage against Jane. He also reopened her bullet wound during Jane's murder. But note, Rock read what I wrote wrong. I was talking about Sarita's death, when I was legitimately worried for Clem's physical safety. |
|
|
|
Post by Rock114 on Apr 28, 2017 2:42:08 GMT
I never feared for Clem's physical safety during Sarita's death. Kenny's never been the type of guy to smack children around, even though he's done plenty of unpleasant things.
And sorry about you're essay, bro. Shall we part in peace this day?
|
|
|
|
Post by sos on Apr 28, 2017 3:44:08 GMT
I saw Arvo's name brought up so now I'm triggered.
Fuck Arvo. He makes me wish I were racist so I could hate him even more.
|
|
Happy 10th Anniversary to The Walking Dead Game 
