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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 4:47:20 GMT
I swear to God if I stumble across Clem and Jane's corpses next season with bullet holes, I quit. That would be such bullshit. I doubt we'll see anything Clem-or-Jane-or-Kenny related in Season 3, unfortunately, unless they want to retcon/nullify the endings. |
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Post by Michael7123 on Aug 29, 2014 4:49:12 GMT
Basically, they're fucked if they forgive the psycho Jane. I don't know how anyone can forgive her. I killed Kenny but told her she was fucking crazy as soon as I got the option to. Here's my reasoning: 1. I figured if she wanted to kill the baby, she would have done it already. I was pretty sure that it was still alive. 2. She said it was an accident, and Kenny didn't give a fuck. 3. I realized she was right. Kenny had become another Lilly. Arguably even worse. 4. She felt horrible about it. I actually kinda like her character. |
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Post by thatstoomuchfestivity on Aug 29, 2014 4:54:38 GMT
Kenny wasn't in any right to murder Jane. She did a stupid, fucked up thing. But Kenny didn't know that. He murdered her for making a mistake. Even if he knew the truth, it wouldn't justify a murder. I wanted to get to Wellington for the sole purpose of Christa, but her not being there just makes this ending worse. She got a fucking offscreen death right after Omid's death. She tried to start a fight. She wanted to kill him. She did the very thing she KNEW would give her "justification" to kill him. At pretty much the very beginning of the fight, before it even got out of hand, she said, "I'm gonna put you down," or some shit like that. She knew exactly what she was doing, and she didn't care. I still want to get to Wellington, even without Christa, because it's what Christa wanted. Christa was our last official caretaker, so I take her wishes for Clem seriously. Just gonna quote Dome here. She's a murderer. She's no better than Crawford. In fact, I think she's worse. At least Crawford was up front about it. Jane will trick you, push your buttons, and generally deceive you to make you seem like the bad guy. She didn't want him dead, though. She just wanted him away from Clem. She puts her knife away towards the beginning of the fight and tells him to just go. But he wanted her dead. And she wanted Clem to see that. It was a doubly fucked situation. Kenny was unwilling to listen to reason, while Jane was unwilling to provide it. If Kenny died, what Jane did would be a prime example of "criminally negligent homicide." If Jane died, what Kenny did would be a prime example of "voluntary manslaughter." Yes, she fucked up badly. Yes, her plan was insanely stupid. But I honestly don't think her true intentions were to have him end up dead. Once the fight started, there was literally "No Going Back". |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 4:57:58 GMT
I don't know how anyone can forgive her. I killed Kenny but told her she was fucking crazy as soon as I got the option to. Here's my reasoning: 1. I figured if she wanted to kill the baby, she would have done it already. I was pretty sure that it was still alive. 2. She said it was an accident, and Kenny didn't give a fuck. 3. I realized she was right. Kenny had become another Lilly. Arguably even worse. 4. She felt horrible about it. I actually kinda like her character. She was psychotic. She was acting like Campman. That scumbag was all I could think about as I tried to forgive her. I just couldn't. Because Campman at least had a tragic backstory to back up his hatred of Lee. Kenny was worse than Lilly, but he always was. Nothing had changed. Regardless of whether or not Kenny would have forgiven her for it being an accident, don't forget that Jane actively encouraged violence. It took her all of three seconds to decide she wanted Kenny dead, and she massively manipulated him up until that point. She talked like she felt horrible, but she also talked psychotically. "I had to do it," is something that a crazy person would say here. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 5:00:03 GMT
She tried to start a fight. She wanted to kill him. She did the very thing she KNEW would give her "justification" to kill him. At pretty much the very beginning of the fight, before it even got out of hand, she said, "I'm gonna put you down," or some shit like that. She knew exactly what she was doing, and she didn't care. I still want to get to Wellington, even without Christa, because it's what Christa wanted. Christa was our last official caretaker, so I take her wishes for Clem seriously. Just gonna quote Dome here. She didn't want him dead, though. She just wanted him away from Clem. She puts her knife away towards the beginning of the fight and tells him to just go. But he wanted her dead. And she wanted Clem to see that. It was a doubly fucked situation. Kenny was unwilling to listen to reason, while Jane was unwilling to provide it. If Kenny died, what Jane did would be a prime example of "criminally negligent homicide." If Jane died, what Kenny did would be a prime example of "voluntary manslaughter." Yes, she fucked up badly. Yes, her plan was insanely stupid. But I honestly don't think her true intentions were to have him end up dead. Once the fight started, there was literally "No Going Back". Yes, that's why she almost immediately resorted to slicing his stomach open. She so desperately wanted him alive. She said go one time, and then pretty much said, "Ima kill you you little niga." She knew Kenny wouldn't leave at "Go." She was a master manipulator, and she said everything that would make Kenny more angry than he already was. |
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Post by thatstoomuchfestivity on Aug 29, 2014 5:14:20 GMT
Just gonna quote Dome here. Yes, she fucked up badly. Yes, her plan was insanely stupid. But I honestly don't think her true intentions were to have him end up dead. Once the fight started, there was literally "No Going Back". Yes, that's why she almost immediately resorted to slicing his stomach open. She so desperately wanted him alive. She said go one time, and then pretty much said, "Ima kill you you little niga." She knew Kenny wouldn't leave at "Go." She was a master manipulator, and she said everything that would make Kenny more angry than he already was. You distrust her, naturally reading into everything she does as manipulative, and I get that. But I'd much rather be with the "manipulative psycho bitch", as you call her, rather than Kenny, because: 1. I as the player can control to an extent how much I agree or disagree with her, whereas I have no say in the matter when Kenny rages. 2. Once I've chosen Jane, I'd much rather go with another survivor, than have Clem and the baby attempt to make it on their own. We know that it was in fact Jane's decision to leave the baby in the car, but that simply showed Kenny was willing to kill over a mistake. Without the baby, I doubt Clem would've held any more influence in his mind, thus eliminating her one source of safety from him. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 5:24:16 GMT
Yes, that's why she almost immediately resorted to slicing his stomach open. She so desperately wanted him alive. She said go one time, and then pretty much said, "Ima kill you you little niga." She knew Kenny wouldn't leave at "Go." She was a master manipulator, and she said everything that would make Kenny more angry than he already was. You distrust her, naturally reading into everything she does as manipulative, and I get that. But I'd much rather be with the "manipulative psycho bitch", as you call her, rather than Kenny, because: 1. I as the player can control to an extent how much I agree or disagree with her, whereas I have no say in the matter when Kenny rages. 2. Once I've chosen Jane, I'd much rather go with another survivor, than have Clem and the baby attempt to make it on their own. We know that it was in fact Jane's decision to leave the baby in the car, but that simply showed Kenny was willing to kill over a mistake. Without the baby, I doubt Clem would've held any more influence in his mind, thus eliminating her one source of safety from him. Clem would always be safe from Kenny's rage. Even though he kinda lost it at one point, it never ever crossed his mind to hurt Clementine. The baby changed nothing, except that Kenny thought of it more highly than Clem. Doesn't mean Clem isn't safe. As much as I hate Kenny, I don't believe Kenny would ever hurt Clementine. He also made it very clear that he thought Jane was lying about making a mistake. If it had been Mike who said this, I seriously doubt Kenny would've tried to kill him. Same as if it had been Lee, or hell, anyone. Regardless, he'd be pissed, he'd be broken, but he wouldn't hurt anyone. I also would like to leave Jane because I told Clementine that Crawford was full of bad people. I like to believe that Clem took that to heart. |
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Post by DomeWing333 on Aug 29, 2014 6:07:46 GMT
You distrust her, naturally reading into everything she does as manipulative, and I get that. But I'd much rather be with the "manipulative psycho bitch", as you call her, rather than Kenny, because: 1. I as the player can control to an extent how much I agree or disagree with her, whereas I have no say in the matter when Kenny rages. 2. Once I've chosen Jane, I'd much rather go with another survivor, than have Clem and the baby attempt to make it on their own. We know that it was in fact Jane's decision to leave the baby in the car, but that simply showed Kenny was willing to kill over a mistake. Without the baby, I doubt Clem would've held any more influence in his mind, thus eliminating her one source of safety from him. Clem would always be safe from Kenny's rage. Even though he kinda lost it at one point, it never ever crossed his mind to hurt Clementine. The baby changed nothing, except that Kenny thought of it more highly than Clem. Doesn't mean Clem isn't safe. As much as I hate Kenny, I don't believe Kenny would ever hurt Clementine. He also made it very clear that he thought Jane was lying about making a mistake. If it had been Mike who said this, I seriously doubt Kenny would've tried to kill him. Same as if it had been Lee, or hell, anyone. Regardless, he'd be pissed, he'd be broken, but he wouldn't hurt anyone. I also would like to leave Jane because I told Clementine that Crawford was full of bad people. I like to believe that Clem took that to heart. Well, see, that's the thing with rage. You end up doing things that wouldn't cross your mind when you're calm. My fear isn't that Kenny will eventually turn on Clem like he did Jane. I don't imagine Clem doing anything that would provoke that response from him. What I am afraid of is her or the baby getting caught between him and his rage against another and suffering the consequences. Kenny has shown less and less capacity to pull himself back from the brink of every time he gets mad. If Wellington doesn't end up existing, if they encounter some issue along the way, if they get into some conflict with another survivor, I don't want those kids being around him when he flies off the handle. Also Kenny once tried to hurt Mike over someone else forcing him to work. If Mike told him that he accidentally killed AJ? Yeah, I'd imagining Kenny doing the same. He doesn't trust people anymore. For good reason, but he acts on that distrust far too readily and goes further and further each time. You saw the way he treated Arvo. That was despicable. Using him as a hostage, berating him, beating him half to death, never showing a single shred of empathy or human concern for another's suffering. I distinctly remember another man who was the same way and we all know what happened to him. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 7:27:08 GMT
Shit, I wrote a whole post on that but it looks like I didn't click 'post reply' and it got erased. Jesus...  Well, to cut long story short: it's all true about Kenny and Jane. They were both dangerous to Clem and AJ. Kenny was getting violent when he heard 'no' from anybody, that's right. But when Clem refuses Jane's proposal to escape in the car, she puts AJ in danger and gets Kenny killed only to manipulate Clem into changing her decision - so there's really no difference between Kenny and Jane (other than the fact that Kenny MIGHT abuse Clem phisically, while Jane MIGHT abuse Clem mentally. Dunno which is worse). That's why I think that Clem would be better off on her own. She's not an innocent and naive girl anymore, she will be able to take care of herself and AJ. |
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Post by DomeWing333 on Aug 29, 2014 7:44:20 GMT
Although, the thing is that neither of them end up being beyond salvaging. If you go with Kenny to Wellington, he volunteers to stay outside to let Clem and the baby enter, giving up his obsession for the sake of others. If you go with Jane and let the timer run out on letting the family in, Jane lets them in, showing that she still has a fair bit of humanity and empathy in her.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 8:15:48 GMT
And we can say that because we know all the outcomes right now.
But back then it isn't so easy, all we have is uncertainty. And while both Jane and Kenny MIGHT come around in the end, it still doesn't neglect the fact that we have to choose between two monsters who SOMETIMES show genuine care. But once again - we don't KNOW that. At the moment when the decision is made, we see two people damaged beyond repair. And now, knowing all the endings and seeing how they play out, I see only two solutions to this problem - either both of them are alive or both are dead. The game denies us the first option, so...
It's not like I entered some rage and bloothirst to kill both of them. But at that moment, it all came down to this - both Jane and Kenny are monsters in their own way and I had to put aside my personal preference towards Kenny. Jane was killed because she provoked Kenny, so she had it coming. In doing so, Kenny became more dangerous than ever before. When Clem raised the gun, he didn't protest. As I wrote sometime before, death was only a relief for him. Jane ends up reunited with her sister, and Kenny is reunited with his family - and both Kenny and Jane won't hurt anyone else. Sounds good to me.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Aug 29, 2014 8:27:50 GMT
This kind of goes back to the Sarah decision, though, doesn't it? The idea that some people are damaged beyond repair and may or may not be salvageable in their condition? Sarah wasn't a monster, but she was a liability. She had gotten people killed and was likely to get more people killed if she remained as she was. Would it have been a mercy to decide that Sarah was beyond saving and put a bullet in her head right in the trailer? I don't know. Also, off-topic but it's pretty difficult to go through this game as a non-believer and have the only options to console someone is to profess a belief in an afterlife you don't think exists...  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 9:32:46 GMT
Sarah is much more complicated case than that. I was willing to give her the benfit of the doubt back in the trailer, because her lockdown was a way of coping with Carlos's death. She was simply not out of this stage yet. Without him sheltering her, she was, ironically, free to shape her own character. Results are immediately seen - while surrounded by walkers for the first time, she's resigned and wants to be abandoned - she's depressed, she can't see anything clearly. While the same situation occurs later on, she doesn't want to die, she screams for help (and when Jane does try to help her, she tries to get out, but she's simply not strong enough physically to do so) and that's why I am mad at TT for killing her - because she might have (I repeat - MIGHT HAVE) slowly come to terms about what happened.
And about this "Sarah had gotten people killed" - no such case in Ep1 & Ep2. In Ep3, Reggie dies - but not because of Sarah. Carver reveals to Clementine that Reggie would have died anyway, because he considered him weak. I imagine that even if both girls would do their chores, Carver would kill Reggie anyway for some other reason - so that's not on Sarah in my book. The finale of Ep3 - Carlos died because he was shot and drew the attention of walkers by himself. I can't imagine anyone seeing their family devoured in front of their eyes being calm. So I don't think Sarita's death is also Sarah's fault. It's easy to pin the blame on someone in TWD, because this is also some sort of coping mechanism that the characters love to employ (e.g. Kenny blaming Clementine etc.) Sarah didn't want to hurt anyone directly and did not mean any harm.
Meanwhile, we have Kenny who killed Larry (yes - even though Kenny is one of my favourite characters, I still believe that Larry was alive in that meat locker), actively encouraged us to kill Ben in the bell tower and got Alvin killed (yes - he might've not known that Carver will kill Walter in retaliation for killing one of his men, but nonetheless he kept on shooting, resulting in Alvin's execution). There's also Jane, who killed Troy without remorse, even though he was kind of agreeing to leave with the group, actively encouraged us to abandon Sarah (same situation as Kenny-Ben) and wanted Kenny dead just to prove the point. So yeah, I think both Kenny and Jane are different from Sarah.
Off-topic: well, being Christian myself, it felt natural to do so. However, I think non-believers might use that option too as a way of consoling a friend (during the campfire scene, telling Kenny about seeing Katjaa and Duck) who may need some kind words (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that in S1 Kenny said that he was a Christian) because the world is falling apart around him. I see it more as 'telling people what they need to hear' in this kind of moment than professing one's faith.
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Post by DomeWing333 on Aug 29, 2014 10:02:56 GMT
And Kenny's frenzied lashing out is the way that he copes with death. After it happened, he quickly snapped back to reason. Sarah was still in a delusional stupor after you save her. It doesn't come until later that she shows signs of wanting to live but this is just like the Kenny case because in the moment, like you said, there was no indication that the person was going to get better. And I don't see how being willing to scream for help counts as Sarah "coming into her own" and it certainly doesn't make her not a liability.
If we're not blaming Sarah for Reggie's death because Carver was going to kill him anyway, then we shouldn't blame Kenny for Alvin's death for the same reason. Sarah shutting down in the trailer got Nick killed, and very nearly got Luke, Clem, and Jane killed.
Again, Jane did not want Kenny dead. She just wanted him away from her and Clem. I agree that Kenny and Jane are different from Sarah in terms of their culpability for their actions, but at the end of the day, they were all people who were broken in one way or another, with no immediate sign of recovery, and whose behavior was dangerous to those around them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 10:41:40 GMT
Yeah, after Kenny killed Jane, he quickly snapped back to reason. After aiming a gun at Arvo and later beating crap out of him, he too snapped back to reason (albeit a bit forced by the group). That's Kenny's problem - he deals with everything in violent way, and after he's done, he has a thought or two that maybe he shouldn't act like this. He killed Jane, realized what he's done and said that he'll do better. He said almost the same thing when Clem was changing his bandage. No guarantee that another outburst won't happen (especially when Clem decides to abandon Wellington and go with him - notice that Clem just blew off the chance he'd given her and despite the fact that she wants to stay with him because of their relationship, his face is without expression. I see this as AT LEAST worrying sign). I see Sarah's scream as some sort of change because this way she shows that she's willing to live, while sometime earlier she was ready to give up. That counts for something. Of course, it can be said that if she was rescued on the observation deck, she might've still be a closed person etc. but we don't know that - it was the first time she's shown a change for the better, so we don't know whether she would have reverted to her old habits of being naive. Kenny on the other hand has a history of failed promises of change.
Sarah was simply used as a mean for Reggie's death. He would die anyway according to Carver. The problem with Kenny is that in Ep2, after Carver kills Walter, he knows that if he keeps shooting, Alvin will die. That's on him (I'm just talking about this possibility, because if Alvin survives Ep2, then I agree that Kenny can't be blamed for his death in Ep3 because he's not involved in it at all).
I forgot about this Nick's death fiasco, so okay - I can agree on the fact that Sarah's shutting down lead to his death, because he tried to look for help.
Even though the situation was dangerous, I was still trying to risk Clem's life to save Sarah only to prove Jane wrong. That was a selfish reason, I know. I was kind of hoping that Sarah will be given an ability to prove herself. I guess I didn't learn anything from Ben in Season 1, because I still have hope that one day TT will provide us with a storyline of a weak NPC character being stronger than anyone else. Jane and Kenny had many opportunities to prove themselves. Kenny always chose violence and Jane kept telling us 'why bring a child to this world?' (Rebecca), 'leave her' (Sarah in the trailer), 'don't save her' (Sarah at the observation deck), 'fuck Kenny' (Ep5).
I believe that Jane wanted to kill Kenny from the moment she said to Clementine 'don't intervene'. She provoked the fight without any real reason, cut Kenny with her knife, stuck her fingers in his eye socket, said that she will 'put him down' and - when the situation turned to 'dead or alive' outsidethe building and Clem tried to separate them, trying to talk some sense into Jane - she shoves her out of the way and attack Kenny. Sorry, but if a person provokes a fight with a man who will DEFINITELY try to kill this person in retaliation, and said person still decides to go with it (and asks Clem not to intervene!) - then sorry, did Jane intended on dying willingly at Kenny's hand? I don't think so. She also far exceeded what I would consider self-defense, and if she really wanted to prove her point, she could've simlpy knock Kenny out and leave him unconscious before any real fight started and then say 'See, Clem? He's unhinged. I had to protect the baby, let's go!'. And boy, if that was the case, I would seriously consider going with her.
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Happy 10th Anniversary to The Walking Dead Game href.li/?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dAOhepWxds
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