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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 19:21:03 GMT
Kenny is the greatest. As for Luke.... I really don't get why people like him. He drops Clem when he thought she was bitten Anyone would've done the same. It was out of shock. and only believed that she wasn't when Pete decided the accusations were false. Because he respects Pete's better judgement, and in the back of his mind he wasn't going to leave a kid behind either. He disappears twice, ends up getting us all in trouble because he was trying to get food. Really Luke? Of all the things to get caught for doing, not saving someone, not gathering weapons or even trying to get a fucking walkie-talke, but stealing food. Because he'd previously spent a full day chasing the truck on foot without stopping for food or sleep, I think that's a good enough excuse to go looking for food. Plus after those walkie-talkies went missing the night before Carver probably cracked down on security, so in his exhaustion Luke probably hadn't realised. Luke doesn't even give me a reason to even consider saving him. Because Kenny's taking up too much screen time and there's no space to develop Luke or anyone else enough.
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Post by Teacakes on Jul 4, 2014 19:32:33 GMT
Ok, you have a point, but I really don't get why people like him. Like, at all.
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Post by Michael7123 on Jul 4, 2014 19:33:38 GMT
Kenny is the greatest. As for Luke.... I really don't get why people like him. He drops Clem when he thought she was bitten Anyone would've done the same. It was out of shock. and only believed that she wasn't when Pete decided the accusations were false. Because he respects Pete's better judgement, and in the back of his mind he wasn't going to leave a kid behind either. He disappears twice, ends up getting us all in trouble because he was trying to get food. Really Luke? Of all the things to get caught for doing, not saving someone, not gathering weapons or even trying to get a fucking walkie-talke, but stealing food. Because he'd previously spent a full day chasing the truck on foot without stopping for food or sleep, I think that's a good enough excuse to go looking for food. Plus after those walkie-talkies went missing the night before Carver probably cracked down on security, so in his exhaustion Luke probably hadn't realised. Luke doesn't even give me a reason to even consider saving him. Because Kenny's taking up too much screen time and there's no space to develop Luke or anyone else enough. Only thing I disagree with is due to the apparent proximity of Parker's run (Parker's cross in real life), he had to have used a car. Other than that, yeah. You're right.
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Post by Michael7123 on Jul 4, 2014 19:34:59 GMT
Ok, you have a point, but I really don't get why people like him. Like, at all. Saving Clementine's life might have something to do with it. The same reason why I like Kenny a lot more after this episode. Even though he probably didn't save Clem's life, he did protect her from getting the shit beat out of her.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 19:35:30 GMT
Anyone would've done the same. It was out of shock. Because he respects Pete's better judgement, and in the back of his mind he wasn't going to leave a kid behind either. Because he'd previously spent a full day chasing the truck on foot without stopping for food or sleep, I think that's a good enough excuse to go looking for food. Plus after those walkie-talkies went missing the night before Carver probably cracked down on security, so in his exhaustion Luke probably hadn't realised. Because Kenny's taking up too much screen time and there's no space to develop Luke or anyone else enough. Only thing I disagree with is due to the apparent proximity of Parker's run (Parker's cross in real life), he had to have used a car. Other than that, yeah. You're right. Driving requires effort too, and he was probably driving the whole time while Bonnie, Troy and Carver probably drove in shifts.
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Post by Rock114 on Jul 4, 2014 19:40:06 GMT
I was gonna give my thoughts on Luke, but Jake and Mike beat me to it so anything I have to say would be redundant at this point.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 19:40:17 GMT
1. He was freaking out when he thought that it was a walker bite for sure. When Pete says it might actualy be a dog bite, he calms down. Keep in mind, he's the first person in the group to offer Clem some shelter untill she heals up. That didn't come from Pete. Point taken - he might have... overreacted to the bite a bit. But at the same time I don't recall Lee/Carley/Glen freaking out that much about the bitten woman or - especially- Chuck freaking out about Duck (mind you, they were almost strangers back then, just like Luke-Clem) in S1 (Chuck was even trying to humor him!). I get it - people react to bite differently, but Luke's reaction was completely over the top - and in the next scene he seemed like a completely different person, as if the bite didn't bother him that much. 2. In episode 2, he fixes the transformer with Kenny, and he's not with the group in episode 4 because he gets separated from them in the herd. Neither of those are his fault. And I would get it if he got separated from group once. But it happened twice in a row. Don't you think that's a bit... opportunistic? They're attacked by Carver's people - "F*ck it, I'm running away... but wait, I won't survive without a doctor. I need to help them". They're attacked by walkers - "F*ck it, it's every man for himself...". It's like he's just watching his own ass, but he realizes he won't survive on his own - so he ensures his safety first and then rejoins whoever lives. Ever read or seen "Band of Brothers", precisely The Battle of Foy sequence? The company's commander keeps running away during every enemy attack and returns after it ends, saying that he was patroling the territory or he was securing the area. That's the same situation with Luke here - that's not how the supposed leader of the group behaves. 3. He is being logical. When he said they should wait, they had to deal with. * A pregnant woman less than a week away from labor. * Himself, beat to shit and starving. * Several other people in various stages of being beat up (Clementine, Carlos). * Sarita in a mess about Kenny * And to top it off, a man who is unconscious and may or may not have brain damage. When everyone else insists that they leave tonight, he brings up the logical point there is no way in hell they will manage to get an unconscious man through a herd in one peice. That's why he argued against leaving that night in the first place. Same as above - the group was prepared and ready (and Kenny was also up to the task). Luke was just worried that he might get his ass shot off and reluctantly agreed to escape because the rest was determined to leave.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 19:43:48 GMT
Luke doesn't even give me a reason to even consider saving him. Because Kenny's taking up too much screen time and there's no space to develop Luke or anyone else enough. Kenny is (arguably) taking up too much screen time because Luke keeps running away.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 19:45:37 GMT
They're attacked by walkers - "F*ck it, it's every man for himself..." The group is completely split up at the end of Episode 3. Luke and Nick both go missing, not by choice, but because the walkers prevented them from getting near any other people from the group. The same happens with Kenny and Sarita; Kenny can't get to her so he's forced to escape with Bonnie, Rebecca and Mike. Also Luke goes missing the first time because Kenny pretty much tells him to fuck off, and before he can get back to the Ski Lodge, Carver's goons show up so he's forced to hide and wait it out while Kenny goes and gets Walter killed.
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Post by Michael7123 on Jul 4, 2014 19:52:22 GMT
1. He was freaking out when he thought that it was a walker bite for sure. When Pete says it might actualy be a dog bite, he calms down. Keep in mind, he's the first person in the group to offer Clem some shelter untill she heals up. That didn't come from Pete. Point taken - he might have... overreacted to the bite a bit. But at the same time I don't recall Lee/Carley/Glen freaking out that much about the bitten woman or - especially- Chuck freaking out about Duck (mind you, they were almost strangers back then, just like Luke-Clem) in S1 (Chuck was even trying to humor him!). I get it - people react to bite differently, but Luke's reaction was completely over the top - and in the next scene he seemed like a completely different person, as if the bite didn't bother him that much. 2. In episode 2, he fixes the transformer with Kenny, and he's not with the group in episode 4 because he gets separated from them in the herd. Neither of those are his fault. And I would get it if he got separated from group once. But it happened twice in a row. Don't you think that's a bit... opportunistic? They're attacked by Carver's people - "F*ck it, I'm running away... but wait, I won't survive without a doctor. I need to help them". They're attacked by walkers - "F*ck it, it's every man for himself...". It's like he's just watching his own ass, but he realizes he won't survive on his own - so he ensures his safety first and then rejoins whoever lives. Ever read or seen "Band of Brothers", precisely The Battle of Foy sequence? The company's commander keeps running away during every enemy attack and returns after it ends, saying that he was patroling the territory or he was securing the area. That's the same situation with Luke here - that's not how the supposed leader of the group behaves. 3. He is being logical. When he said they should wait, they had to deal with. * A pregnant woman less than a week away from labor. * Himself, beat to shit and starving. * Several other people in various stages of being beat up (Clementine, Carlos). * Sarita in a mess about Kenny * And to top it off, a man who is unconscious and may or may not have brain damage. When everyone else insists that they leave tonight, he brings up the logical point there is no way in hell they will manage to get an unconscious man through a herd in one peice. That's why he argued against leaving that night in the first place. Same as above - the group was prepared and ready (and Kenny was also up to the task). Luke was just worried that he might get his ass shot off and reluctantly agreed to escape because the rest was determined to leave. 1. In all of those scenarios, none of them were holding the bitten person in there arms. Was it a bit over the top? Yeah. Fine. Point taken. But he didn't say "hey, we need to kill this girl now, she's a danger?" 2. Do you really think the only reason he chased after the group was to get access to a doctor? If he's that blatantly self interested, why did he even bother saving Clementine in the first place? All she would be is an extra mouth to feed, and he risked getting chomped by walkers to get within sword reach. Secondly, it's worth mentioning that he risked getting outright shot by carver or his guards. If there is any person in the group Carver would have said to kill on site, it would be the guy who persuaded everyone else to go. Besides, we don't know what happened to Luke in episode 2. And he would be safer in a large group while in the middle of the herd. The more fire power, the better. Secondly, its possible that he is off with Nick at the moment, trying to find the group. 3. When Luke made the point about leaving him behind, Carlos had just said that there might be damage to the brain, and Kenny was out cold. He's the only one who brought up the point about leaving him behind if everyone else insisted on leaving that night. He doesn't say "oh yeah, Kenny, now that you are awake, were gonna leave you behind." He says "hey, maybe because we are all beat to shit, we shouldn't run straight into a herd of zombies." When everyone else insists on it, he tells them that if they insist on leaving, they won't physically be able to bring Kenny.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 19:53:23 GMT
They're attacked by walkers - "F*ck it, it's every man for himself..." The group is completely split up at the end of Episode 3. Luke and Nick both go missing, not by choice, but because the walkers prevented them from getting near any other people from the group. The same happens with Kenny and Sarita; Kenny can't get to her so he's forced to escape with Bonnie, Rebecca and Mike. Also Luke goes missing the first time because Kenny pretty much tells him to fuck off, and before he can get back to the Ski Lodge, Carver's goons show up so he's forced to hide and wait it out while Kenny goes and gets Walter killed. And I would completely understand that if it weren't for the fact that Luke tends to go missing in dangerous situations. He went missing after the group was captured for the first time, and now this? Besides, what did he accomplish in Episode 3 between talking to Clementine and being captured? Absolutely nothing. He was in the store for at least a day and couldn't come up with anything? No plan, no sabotage, no nothing? If he was captured in episode 2 it wouldn't change anything (well, Kenny's eye wouldn't be crushed) because the group went on with the plan envisioned by Rebecca, Jane and Clementine.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 19:59:18 GMT
If he was captured in episode 2 it wouldn't change anything (well, Kenny's eye wouldn't be crushed) because the group went on with the plan envisioned by Rebecca, Jane and Clementine. Luke couldn't rely on the fact that Jane was around to tell them about the guts thing and Mike was there to mention the speakers to kickstart the other plan , so he had to come up with one himself. Admittedly, it wasn't very good because he was exhausted and couldn't think straight, but it was better than 'improvise'.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 20:04:37 GMT
Point taken - he might have... overreacted to the bite a bit. But at the same time I don't recall Lee/Carley/Glen freaking out that much about the bitten woman or - especially- Chuck freaking out about Duck (mind you, they were almost strangers back then, just like Luke-Clem) in S1 (Chuck was even trying to humor him!). I get it - people react to bite differently, but Luke's reaction was completely over the top - and in the next scene he seemed like a completely different person, as if the bite didn't bother him that much. And I would get it if he got separated from group once. But it happened twice in a row. Don't you think that's a bit... opportunistic? They're attacked by Carver's people - "F*ck it, I'm running away... but wait, I won't survive without a doctor. I need to help them". They're attacked by walkers - "F*ck it, it's every man for himself...". It's like he's just watching his own ass, but he realizes he won't survive on his own - so he ensures his safety first and then rejoins whoever lives. Ever read or seen "Band of Brothers", precisely The Battle of Foy sequence? The company's commander keeps running away during every enemy attack and returns after it ends, saying that he was patroling the territory or he was securing the area. That's the same situation with Luke here - that's not how the supposed leader of the group behaves. Same as above - the group was prepared and ready (and Kenny was also up to the task). Luke was just worried that he might get his ass shot off and reluctantly agreed to escape because the rest was determined to leave. 1. In all of those scenarios, none of them were holding the bitten person in there arms. Was it a bit over the top? Yeah. Fine. Point taken. But he didn't say "hey, we need to kill this girl now, she's a danger?" 2. Do you really think the only reason he chased after the group was to get access to a doctor? If he's that blatantly self interested, why did he even bother saving Clementine in the first place? All she would be is an extra mouth to feed, and he risked getting chomped by walkers to get within sword reach. Secondly, it's worth mentioning that he risked getting outright shot by carver or his guards. If there is any person in the group Carver would have said to kill on site, it would be the guy who persuaded everyone else to go. Besides, we don't know what happened to Luke in episode 2. And he would be safer in a large group while in the middle of the herd. The more fire power, the better. Secondly, its possible that he is off with Nick at the moment, trying to find the group. 3. When Luke made the point about leaving him behind, Carlos had just said that there might be damage to the brain, and Kenny was out cold. He's the only one who brought up the point about leaving him behind if everyone else insisted on leaving that night. He doesn't say "oh yeah, Kenny, now that you are awake, were gonna leave you behind." He says "hey, maybe because we are all beat to shit, we shouldn't run straight into a herd of zombies." When everyone else insists on it, he tells them that if they insist on leaving, they won't physically be able to bring Kenny. 1. No, he didn't say that. But he said that Clementine may be a walker soon and she may bite - yes, guess who? - Pete. Don't you recall that Luke says something like 'OK, she might not be bitten by a walker, but PETE, you should totally check that out just because". Even after Pete says he trust Clementine, Luke still seems a bit of a jerk. And then he comes back to cabin and goes like 'She's a litte girl, help her!' I don't get this sudden change in behaviour. 2. If I am to guess, if Luke stumbled upon Clementine without Pete, he would've left her in the forest. Besides, I think that one line mentioned by CARVER in episode 2 summarises the entire situation - 'I told you not to go with him' because he won't lead them anywhere. Keep in mind that even Nick says that he wants to be like Luke - 'to keep MOVING ON'. I didn't understand these words back then, now I do. It's not just about job or anything - it's about leaving people and jumping on the wagon with a bigger survival chance. 3. OK, I retract that statement, I forgot that Kenny's status was unknown back then, though I still stand by the statement that Luke was willing to sacrifice people to save his own ass.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 20:08:18 GMT
If he was captured in episode 2 it wouldn't change anything (well, Kenny's eye wouldn't be crushed) because the group went on with the plan envisioned by Rebecca, Jane and Clementine. Luke couldn't rely on the fact that Jane was around to tell them about the guts thing and Mike was there to mention the speakers to kickstart the other plan , so he had to come up with one himself. Admittedly, it wasn't very good because he was exhausted and couldn't think straight, but it was better than 'improvise'. Well, the thing is, he didn't come up with anything - except for grabbing that walkie talkie to communicate with the rest. He wanted that radio to prepare for... what? We don't know, because he didn't share any plan (and he was hiding in a store for a day), so it's likely that he didn't know what to do at all (except for grabbing food which got him caught, congratulations).
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Post by Rock114 on Jul 4, 2014 20:17:17 GMT
1. In all of those scenarios, none of them were holding the bitten person in there arms. Was it a bit over the top? Yeah. Fine. Point taken. But he didn't say "hey, we need to kill this girl now, she's a danger?" 2. Do you really think the only reason he chased after the group was to get access to a doctor? If he's that blatantly self interested, why did he even bother saving Clementine in the first place? All she would be is an extra mouth to feed, and he risked getting chomped by walkers to get within sword reach. Secondly, it's worth mentioning that he risked getting outright shot by carver or his guards. If there is any person in the group Carver would have said to kill on site, it would be the guy who persuaded everyone else to go. Besides, we don't know what happened to Luke in episode 2. And he would be safer in a large group while in the middle of the herd. The more fire power, the better. Secondly, its possible that he is off with Nick at the moment, trying to find the group. 3. When Luke made the point about leaving him behind, Carlos had just said that there might be damage to the brain, and Kenny was out cold. He's the only one who brought up the point about leaving him behind if everyone else insisted on leaving that night. He doesn't say "oh yeah, Kenny, now that you are awake, were gonna leave you behind." He says "hey, maybe because we are all beat to shit, we shouldn't run straight into a herd of zombies." When everyone else insists on it, he tells them that if they insist on leaving, they won't physically be able to bring Kenny. 1. No, he didn't say that. But he said that Clementine may be a walker soon and she may bite - yes, guess who? - Pete. Don't you recall that Luke says something like 'OK, she might not be bitten by a walker, but PETE, you should totally check that out just because". Even after Pete says he trust Clementine, Luke still seems a bit of a jerk. And then he comes back to cabin and goes like 'She's a litte girl, help her!' I don't get this sudden change in behaviour. 2. If I am to guess, if Luke stumbled upon Clementine without Pete, he would've left her in the forest. Besides, I think that one line mentioned by CARVER in episode 2 summarises the entire situation - 'I told you not to go with him' because he won't lead them anywhere. Keep in mind that even Nick says that he wants to be like Luke - 'to keep MOVING ON'. I didn't understand these words back then, now I do. It's not just about job or anything - it's about leaving people and jumping on the wagon with a bigger survival chance. 3. OK, I retract that statement, I forgot that Kenny's status was unknown back then, though I still stand by the statement that Luke was willing to sacrifice people to save his own ass. 1. He wants Pete to inspect the bite because unlike Luke, Pete is an outdoorsman. A Hunter. Someone who would have more experience than him when it comes to animal bites. Luke freely admits that he would have no idea if the bite was "a dog bite, a walker bite, or a mosquito bite". Pete checking it was the logical thing to do, and since not even the group's Doctor was able to tell the difference, what chance would Luke have? And since nobody could tell if it really was a dog bite or not, Luke was entirely justified in not carrying Clem back to the cabin. All he had was Pete's assurance, which was based on no evidence, that Clem was telling the truth. 2. For all we know, Nick means that Luke can move past traumatic events, whereas we know that Nick really can't. Which is why he'd like to be like him, able to "move on" from things like that. And if Luke really did decide to "cut and run" in Episode 2, he wouldn't have tracked the group for days, on foot, alone, with no food or rest, just to bust them out of a prison camp where the guards would likely shoot him on sight. Those aren't the actions of someone like Luke. If anything, you're describing Jane. 3. Luke was only playing Devil's Advocate because everyone else wanted to leave when he wanted to stay put. He never wanted to leave anyone behind, which is why he recommended that they needed to stay a few more days and let everyone recover.
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