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Post by Autobot Sonic Part II on Dec 24, 2016 4:51:57 GMT
How, exactly, is Telltale refusing to improve? The company is growing, a lot of people here agree that TFTB was their best work yet... As someone, or as any entity, is improving, it's better to voice your opinions than just "try to make the best of it". Nothing you've said has made your position of defending and spinning positives out of Telltales mistakes and flaws make any sense to me. If a lot of fans voice that they were angry about how the flashbacks went down, it's possible that Telltale might see that, and work on improving in the future. That's the optimistic point of view. The pessimist would say they won't improve and continue to tear their stories apart. A realist is probably somewhere more in them middle. Being less than generous towards your position, I'd call you delusional. Defending flaws because you think they won't get better. It just... I'm sorry, but it just doesn't make sense to me. What I'm TRYING to say is that when it comes to TWD, Telltale clearly keeps trying to make drastic changes to the story each time and apparently to most people here that doesn't sit right with them.I for one am FINE with what Telltale has been putting out with TWD. Everyone's calling these flaws massive and tarnishing of the series, but honestly I don't! I mean, TWD isn't the ONLY game in existencewhere all the main characters die in the end, or have a sequel which quickly kills of a character that they had since the beginning! Mass Effect 2 and 3? Assassins Creed 3? Halo Reach and Halo 4? Telltale isn't the only one, guys. Also, you can't just assign when you feel something is a passion project or when it isn't. A lot of people here found Batman to be soulless. You, clearly didn't. Thing is, you often times present your opinions as fact. Someone who thought Batman was a soulless and commercial product here, I'm willing to bet they'd admit that they don't know for sure how they people working on it felt. You, on the other hand. I get the impression that you'd insist that your opinion of what had passion behind it and what didn't was right. I think I can easily say that the people working on Batman were invested in it. You could see in all the Batman Unmasked shows and the BTS trailers that Telltale TRULY CARED about telling their own, unique take on Batman, and was in no way just a soulless cashgrab. Not even Minecraft Story Mode, whose game it's based on HAD NO STORY, was soulless! Despite what most thought, I believed Telltale thoroughly enjoyed creating all the colorful characters and such. I've been following the main writer of Minecraft (and Batman Ep. 4) Eric Stirpe on Tumblr since Ep. 4 of Minecraft came out, and most days he would post on how much fun he was having writing the script for every single episode past 4, and that he and the other writers truly cared about their characters. And by the way, Telltale's poor handling of background characters in Walking Dead isn't just a problem with their tailored story, it doesn't make for a good traditional story either. How they're handling Clem? That does't make for a good traditional story, even not counting choices. Like I said, using a time-skip as an excuse to throw away character development and leave the details to the imagination of fans willing to defend it? Not good writing. That's what the flashbacks are for! Sure Telltale introduced Clem in ANF like that, but we're confirmed to be getting more flashbacks with each episode, which will almost certainly give more insight as to what's been going on with her.
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Post by Rock114 on Dec 24, 2016 4:52:12 GMT
Athena and Zer0 are Gearbox characters, and are therefore incapable of being killed unless Gearbox allowed it. (They only allowed Scooter because his VA is dying.) And Cassius and Felix are NOT relevant to my argument! The original argument was that characters like Kenny, who were major characters of Seasons One and Two, could not be turned into background characters and are either killed off or put in writer limbo when their stories are done. Cassius and Felix each show up for only ONE episode (Cassius appears in Ep. 4 determinantly but only for ONE MINUTE) and hardly undergo ANY character development unlike others such as Gortys, Loaderbot, Sera, Morgryn, etc. As for August, you got me there. He's probably the ONLY character in Telltale history who was a main character and successfully turned into a side one without killing him off. He was pretty much the main antagonist until Episode Three, and became a side character in 3-5. Also, Scooter's VA is dying? That actually is sad as fuck. He was also one of the writers too, IIRC, so they would've had to clear it with him before they axed Scooter.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 5:18:13 GMT
How, exactly, is Telltale refusing to improve? The company is growing, a lot of people here agree that TFTB was their best work yet... As someone, or as any entity, is improving, it's better to voice your opinions than just "try to make the best of it". Nothing you've said has made your position of defending and spinning positives out of Telltales mistakes and flaws make any sense to me. If a lot of fans voice that they were angry about how the flashbacks went down, it's possible that Telltale might see that, and work on improving in the future. That's the optimistic point of view. The pessimist would say they won't improve and continue to tear their stories apart. A realist is probably somewhere more in them middle. Being less than generous towards your position, I'd call you delusional. Defending flaws because you think they won't get better. It just... I'm sorry, but it just doesn't make sense to me. What I'm TRYING to say is that when it comes to TWD, Telltale clearly keeps trying to make drastic changes to the story each time and apparently to most people here that doesn't sit right with them.I for one am FINE with what Telltale has been putting out with TWD. Everyone's calling these flaws massive and tarnishing of the series, but honestly I don't! I mean, TWD isn't the ONLY game in existencewhere all the main characters die in the end, or have a sequel which quickly kills of a character that they had since the beginning! Mass Effect 2 and 3? Assassins Creed 3? Halo Reach and Halo 4? Telltale isn't the only one, guys. Also, you can't just assign when you feel something is a passion project or when it isn't. A lot of people here found Batman to be soulless. You, clearly didn't. Thing is, you often times present your opinions as fact. Someone who thought Batman was a soulless and commercial product here, I'm willing to bet they'd admit that they don't know for sure how they people working on it felt. You, on the other hand. I get the impression that you'd insist that your opinion of what had passion behind it and what didn't was right. I think I can easily say that the people working on Batman were invested in it. You could see in all the Batman Unmasked shows and the BTS trailers that Telltale TRULY CARED about telling their own, unique take on Batman, and was in no way just a soulless cashgrab. Not even Minecraft Story Mode, whose game it's based on HAD NO STORY, was soulless! Despite what most thought, I believed Telltale thoroughly enjoyed creating all the colorful characters and such. I've been following the main writer of Minecraft (and Batman Ep. 4) Eric Stirpe on Tumblr since Ep. 4 of Minecraft came out, and most days he would post on how much fun he was having writing the script for every single episode past 4, and that he and the other writers truly cared about their characters. And by the way, Telltale's poor handling of background characters in Walking Dead isn't just a problem with their tailored story, it doesn't make for a good traditional story either. How they're handling Clem? That does't make for a good traditional story, even not counting choices. Like I said, using a time-skip as an excuse to throw away character development and leave the details to the imagination of fans willing to defend it? Not good writing. That's what the flashbacks are for! Sure Telltale introduced Clem in ANF like that, but we're confirmed to be getting more flashbacks with each episode, which will almost certainly give more insight as to what's been going on with her. Okay, if that's what you were trying to say, you SERIOUSLY need some lessons in how to get a message across. Join a debate club or something. Because what it sounded like you were saying was "Oh we can't do anything about it so we might as well force ourselves to love it." Also, none of those games you listed afterwards are story focused. Most developers try to make a fun game before making an engaging story. Ergo, most game stories blow. Also, Halo Reach was built from the start with EVERYONE invested in the lore understanding that every character was doomed to die. Like it would have been bad in that case if they HADN'T killed everyone. The only story focused games you mentioned there were ME2 and ME3. Both of which have OPTIONAL deaths of main characters from previous games. Meaning you can avoid them. You can't avoid Ken/Jane dying in Season 3, and have them continue to contribute to the plot in any meaningful way, as you can do with Wrex, or Garrus. And also, before you mention it, the terrible, terrible ME3 ending was just bad. I disagree. I think the Batman team did a pretty piss poor job making an engaging TTG game. I don't think it was necessarily soulless, like Michonne, as they obviously knew enough about Batman to meaningfully twist the lore behind it, but beyond that, the story was really by the books, and boring in my opinion. But that's just my opinion. The fact that they're going to go back and continue to flesh out past Clementine doesn't give them an excuse to make your past choices just flat out not influence Clem, and throw out all of the player-induced character development.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 5:26:25 GMT
How, exactly, is Telltale refusing to improve? The company is growing, a lot of people here agree that TFTB was their best work yet... As someone, or as any entity, is improving, it's better to voice your opinions than just "try to make the best of it". Nothing you've said has made your position of defending and spinning positives out of Telltales mistakes and flaws make any sense to me. If a lot of fans voice that they were angry about how the flashbacks went down, it's possible that Telltale might see that, and work on improving in the future. That's the optimistic point of view. The pessimist would say they won't improve and continue to tear their stories apart. A realist is probably somewhere more in them middle. Being less than generous towards your position, I'd call you delusional. Defending flaws because you think they won't get better. It just... I'm sorry, but it just doesn't make sense to me. What I'm TRYING to say is that when it comes to TWD, Telltale clearly keeps trying to make drastic changes to the story each time and apparently to most people here that doesn't sit right with them.I for one am FINE with what Telltale has been putting out with TWD. Everyone's calling these flaws massive and tarnishing of the series, but honestly I don't! I mean, TWD isn't the ONLY game in existencewhere all the main characters die in the end, or have a sequel which quickly kills of a character that they had since the beginning! Mass Effect 2 and 3? Assassins Creed 3? Halo Reach and Halo 4? Telltale isn't the only one, guys. Also, you can't just assign when you feel something is a passion project or when it isn't. A lot of people here found Batman to be soulless. You, clearly didn't. Thing is, you often times present your opinions as fact. Someone who thought Batman was a soulless and commercial product here, I'm willing to bet they'd admit that they don't know for sure how they people working on it felt. You, on the other hand. I get the impression that you'd insist that your opinion of what had passion behind it and what didn't was right. I think I can easily say that the people working on Batman were invested in it. You could see in all the Batman Unmasked shows and the BTS trailers that Telltale TRULY CARED about telling their own, unique take on Batman, and was in no way just a soulless cashgrab. Not even Minecraft Story Mode, whose game it's based on HAD NO STORY, was soulless! Despite what most thought, I believed Telltale thoroughly enjoyed creating all the colorful characters and such. I've been following the main writer of Minecraft (and Batman Ep. 4) Eric Stirpe on Tumblr since Ep. 4 of Minecraft came out, and most days he would post on how much fun he was having writing the script for every single episode past 4, and that he and the other writers truly cared about their characters. And by the way, Telltale's poor handling of background characters in Walking Dead isn't just a problem with their tailored story, it doesn't make for a good traditional story either. How they're handling Clem? That does't make for a good traditional story, even not counting choices. Like I said, using a time-skip as an excuse to throw away character development and leave the details to the imagination of fans willing to defend it? Not good writing. That's what the flashbacks are for! Sure Telltale introduced Clem in ANF like that, but we're confirmed to be getting more flashbacks with each episode, which will almost certainly give more insight as to what's been going on with her. Okay, just pointing out that other things make the same shitty decisions isn't a good argument. Also: The Walking Dead is all about following characters through their lives in this new world and seeing how they change. That was Kirkman's intent when starting the series(as you can read in the first compendium, and I'm sure several other places), and it's basically the defining trait of the franchise. Telltale killing off the entire cast and replacing them each season is a failure in making this series a good Walking Dead series. Though, side-note: I have no idea what the hell your point about Assassin's Creed is. Yeah, most of the games have a completely new cast of characters when it comes to the Animus sections.... that's just how they work. Because it's a new setting. Decades, even centuries pass between each entry in the series. That's how it's built, and this story structure makes it a really poor example to use here. Also, when it comes to the Present Day sections... they haven't killed off the whole cast. Videc was the main villain up until 3, and Desmond was the main character up until 3, and they both died... but the entire supporting cast is still there. Shawn and Rebecca have been around since AC II, and we've seen them grow and change throughout the series. So... I really don't know what your point is. But, to make a final counter-argument to your first point... I haven't played Mass Affect or Halo so I can't talk about that... but I'm willing to bet they don't make sense as comparisons for The Walking Dead. You know what would make sense? Other Walking Dead Series'. And to that end, in both the comics and amc show, we've got a significant amount of characters from Season 1 and Volume 1 still alive. And when a major character like Glenn dies, their death is felt and it matters, they aren't just killed off and then... that's it. I mean, Luke was a major, major character in TWDS2 and 40% into ANF and.... nothing. He just... died because we needed to kill the entire cast... okay. As for your response to the whole passion thing... yeah, that's for proving my point. I also follow Eric Stirpe, and it seems the guy had a lot of passion for all of those projects he worked on. Thing is, he's one writer, and he wasn't in a lead position. I mean... my whole point was we can't really know and therefore we shouldn't make blanket statement about what is a passion project and what is a soulless cashgrab, and you can't prove your opinion on either stance.... and you respond by trying to prove your opinion on your particular stance.... Alright then. Also, no, five minutes flashbacks aren't good enough. They just... aren't. You can't have a major time-skip be your excuse for having a character act completely against any version of their character so far and try to explain it through 5 minute flashbacks. Even if they contrive a way for it to even come close to making any sort of sense... it would still be contrived and... well, just flat-out bad writing. Also, about the "Clem acting out of character no matter what version of Clem this is: None of her character development from season 1 with Lee makes sense for.... any of what happens in ANF. It just doesn't. With Kenny, she wouldn't threaten to kill a man trying to get back to his family. With Jane, she wouldn't do something as reckless as pointing a gun at a man to "demonstrate" bad bullets. Alone, all we see is she loses a finger... how does this lead to her becoming a murderer and a thief? And in case you want to try to make this argument: Yes, Clem killing Eli is murder, not an accident. If you point a gun at a man and pull the trigger when you don't have to, it is murder. She knew there was a chance the bullet would fire, and her only, only reaction to it is a quiet "oh no". I still don't understand why you defend Telltale. I mean, I'm not saying you have to tear them apart or criticize them, and I'm not saying you should stop defending them, I just don't understand why.
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Post by Autobot Sonic Part II on Dec 24, 2016 5:46:59 GMT
But, to make a final counter-argument to your first point... I haven't played Mass Affect or Halo so I can't talk about that... but I'm willing to bet they don't make sense as comparisons for The Walking Dead. You know what would make sense? Other Walking Dead Series'. And to that end, in both the comics and amc show, we've got a significant amount of characters from Season 1 and Volume 1 still alive. And when a major character like Glenn dies, their death is felt and it matters, they aren't just killed off and then... that's it. I mean, Luke was a major, major character in TWDS2 and 40% into ANF and.... nothing. He just... died because we needed to kill the entire cast... okay. How often is Glenn's death brought up after "What Comes After"? Abraham's? What about Rosita and Ezekiel? There death's only affect the charcters for like, 5 episodes or issues at most, and then they just move on, with only an occasional callback! Also, no, five minutes flashbacks aren't good enough. They just... aren't. You can't have a major time-skip be your excuse for having a character act completely against any version of their character so far and try to explain it through 5 minute flashbacks. Even if they contrive a way for it to even come close to making any sort of sense... it would still be contrived and... well, just flat-out bad writing. Who's saying ALL of her flashbacks will be 5 minutes long? That's just based off of the two we've already gotten! I still don't understand why you defend Telltale. I mean, I'm not saying you have to tear them apart or criticize them, and I'm not saying you should stop defending them, I just don't understand why. Because these "flaws" you mention don't really piss me off. The only things Telltale has put out that I have HATED are Eps. 2 and 4 of TWAU, and Ep. 6 of GOT. Everything else I have enjoyed with no complaints about them (With the exception of the Kenny flashback). So go ahead, call me delusional, call my arguments invalid, I won't stop liking the majority of what Telltale puts out even if you all hate it.
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Post by Niccc on Dec 24, 2016 5:49:11 GMT
Can you guys have like a TL;DR at the end of your posts
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 5:55:33 GMT
But, to make a final counter-argument to your first point... I haven't played Mass Affect or Halo so I can't talk about that... but I'm willing to bet they don't make sense as comparisons for The Walking Dead. You know what would make sense? Other Walking Dead Series'. And to that end, in both the comics and amc show, we've got a significant amount of characters from Season 1 and Volume 1 still alive. And when a major character like Glenn dies, their death is felt and it matters, they aren't just killed off and then... that's it. I mean, Luke was a major, major character in TWDS2 and 40% into ANF and.... nothing. He just... died because we needed to kill the entire cast... okay. How often is Glenn's death brought up after "What Comes After"? Abraham's? What about Rosita and Ezekiel? There death's only affect the charcters for like, 5 episodes or issues at most, and then they just move on, with only an occasional callback! Also, no, five minutes flashbacks aren't good enough. They just... aren't. You can't have a major time-skip be your excuse for having a character act completely against any version of their character so far and try to explain it through 5 minute flashbacks. Even if they contrive a way for it to even come close to making any sort of sense... it would still be contrived and... well, just flat-out bad writing. Who's saying ALL of her flashbacks will be 5 minutes long? That's just based off of the two we've already gotten! I still don't understand why you defend Telltale. I mean, I'm not saying you have to tear them apart or criticize them, and I'm not saying you should stop defending them, I just don't understand why. Because these "flaws" you mention don't really piss me off. The only things Telltale has put out that I have HATED are Eps. 2 and 4 of TWAU, and Ep. 6 of GOT. Everything else I have enjoyed with no complaints about them (With the exception of the Kenny flashback). So go ahead, call me delusional, call my arguments invalid, I won't stop liking the majority of what Telltale puts out even if you all hate it. Kind of a lot... I mean, the moment in Season 4 when Glenn knows how to fix the RV and Abraham asks him how he learned to do it? That's more than just a fond callback to Dale, it shows how much he affected Glenn, and that that influence was still with him. And seeing as Negan still talks about Glenn a bit in the comics, and, you know, Glenn's kid is there and Maggie talks about him quite a bit... yeah. Also, it's more than just saying his name, you can see the influence he had on those characters and the story. We don't see that in Telltale's TWD. Luke has no influence on the story anymore. Lee already has any. Outside of the awful flashback scenes, Jane and Kenny each get one awkward line of dialogue, but their influence on Clem isn't felt. There are five episode. We've seen two. That's 40% of the season. Each episode only had one flashback scene, and each scene was about 5 minutes. given that Telltale keeps saying how this is Javier's story, I think it's a safe bet that the flashbacks scene will continue to be short and infrequent. And even if they were longer and more frequent from here on out... There's nothing that could save Clem's character at this point. You'd need to dedicate an entire season to what happened for the sudden jump to make any sense. And, it's still just flat-out insulting that she acts exactly the same no matter what your choices were. And as for the final thing... alright, guess it's a difference of opinion. Although, I will continue to call some of your arguments invalid because they are. Like, comparisons between Assassin's Creed, Halo, and Mass Effect to The Walking Dead to try and prove a point? That's an invalid argument. Though I will still say that what you initially said at the start of this debate, acknowledging that you don't like some things Telltale does but that you "try and make the best of it"? That, still doesn't make any sense to me. Unless you just phrased it wrong or whatever you were saying when you clarified what you were "TRYING" to say the whole time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 5:56:21 GMT
To get this thread back on topic: Kenny is still my personal favorite character in the entire franchise and he deserved so much better.
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Post by sos on Dec 24, 2016 6:11:47 GMT
Not to get too off-topic, but I ate way too much tonight. Feel pretty sick. I bet Kenny would appreciate that if he were alive. Probably find me some Tums or something. Just, like, y'know. Fuckin' Kenny, man.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 6:23:10 GMT
Not to get too off-topic, but I ate way too much tonight. Feel pretty sick. I bet Kenny would appreciate that if he were alive. Probably find me some Tums or something. Just, like, y'know. Fuckin' Kenny, man. Nah. Kenny would probably say something along the lines of, "Sos, you know I care about your health, and I am a Christian man, but I keep asking myself. If this was me, asking you for help, asking you to get up and go to the medicine cabinet, would you be there for me?"
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 6:33:49 GMT
It fucking sucks that we never got to see Kenny, Clem, and AJ as a family. We never really got to see Kenny trying his best and probably fucking up more than once to be a father to both of them. All we got is Kenny teaching Clem to drive with bullshit "I'm two days away from retirement" dialogue before he's just thrown away by the writers. Honestly, Jayko fixed Kenny's death scene better than anyone could, but if I ever got the motivation to write a fic for TWD, it'd be that.
We never got to see that dysfunctional little family surviving, arguing, fucking up and making amends. We never got to see Kenny and Clem making funny faces trying to get AJ to laugh, the tension as they worried over where to go next, what people to trust... Goddamn it. Fuck A New Frontier, and fuck what those writers did to Kenny.
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Post by sos on Dec 24, 2016 6:38:27 GMT
It fucking sucks that we never got to see Kenny, Clem, and AJ as a family. We never really got to see Kenny trying his best and probably fucking up more than once to be a father to both of them. All we got is Kenny teaching Clem to drive with bullshit "I'm two days away from retirement" dialogue before he's just thrown away by the writers. Honestly, Jayko fixed Kenny's death scene better than anyone could, but if I ever got the motivation to write a fic for TWD, it'd be that. We never got to see that dysfunctional little family surviving, arguing, fucking up and making amends. We never got to see Kenny and Clem making funny faces trying to get AJ to laugh, the tension as they worried over where to go next, what people to trust... Goddamn it. Fuck A New Frontier, and fuck what those writers did to Kenny. 2 years to come up with anything. And we get a car crash.
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Post by Niccc on Dec 24, 2016 8:51:16 GMT
There are so many things that show how lazy it was. How Clem looks at her hand no matter what, the out of character actions of Jane, the lazy models, the fact that they do only last five minutes... I'm sorry, but nothing about it feels right. What are you even saying? This doesn't happen AT ALL! If you pick the Wellington ending she touches the scar on her cheek. If you pick the Kenny Ending she touches the scar on her forehead. If you pick the Jane ending she looks at the tattoo, and if you pick the alone ending she looks at her missing finger! I mean I assume you're talking about immediately after Clem wakes up from the flashback right?
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Post by Antero on Dec 24, 2016 9:45:42 GMT
"To me Kenny's death felt right" LOL
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 9:49:27 GMT
"To me Kenny's death felt right" LOL Lol. Sonic isn't a shill, he's just a zealous fanboy. We've known him for literal years.
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